role of hip snap in the serve?

[nytennisaddict]

would be nice to update this article https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...e_wind_up.html, with lessons learned from this drill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XO7IEHDkl0

[Error]

I'm sure I'll pay hell for my comment but I view this stuff as complete nonsense. Not only nonsense but bizarre. I taught my 5' 3" daughter to play and she learned to serve 100mph without ever thinking about anything but the toss, some knee bend and contact point. I think these people have to justify the insane expensive of these academies by coming up with more and more technical jargon designed to impress the clientele... Either that or they have truly convinced themselves that this stuff is actuality legitimate. All I can say is this is not how you learn tennis. You'll never get anyway filling your head with stuff like this. It will inhibit your progress not advance it. You can watch 40 year old instructional video on the serve on youtube, and that covers 90% of it and not a word about "hip snap" lol! If paid to have my kids go to an academy and they started talking about hip snap I'd demand a a refund.

[nytennisaddict]

I'm sure I'll pay hell for my comment but I view this stuff as complete nonsense. Not only nonsense but bizarre. I taught my 5' 3" daughter to play and she learned to serve 100mph without ever thinking about anything but the toss, some knee bend and contact point. I think these people have to justify the insane expensive of these academies by coming up with more and more technical jargon designed to impress the clientele... Either that or they have truly convinced themselves that this stuff is actuality legitimate. All I can say is this is not how you learn tennis. You'll never get anyway filling your head with stuff like this. It will inhibit your progress not advance it. You can watch 40 year old instructional video on the serve on youtube, and that covers 90% of it and not a word about "hip snap" lol! If paid to have my kids go to an academy and they started talking about hip snap I'd demand a a refund.

hehe, sounds like you’re doing something right! what was your methodology for teaching?

I find that good athletes just do a good job mimic’ing the pros,... or just “know” how to move their body efficiently.

but for talentless folks like myself, I find I need to deconstruct how to do things properly, to optimize my movements. even then, I’m 5’ft 4in and can only serve about 100 max (but on avg mid to low 90’s to have a chance of going in)

the serve doctor in the hip snap vid, to me makes sense, and he has a reputation for developing good junior servers.

[johnyandell]

NY,
You might find this instructive:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lder_rotation/

And this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/the_myth/the_myth_of_the_archers_bow/

Pat is a friend of mine but we don't agree on this emphasis. And I don't think Brian's article needs an update. Why don't you look at is on court serve teaching progression?

[Error]

hehe, sounds like you’re doing something right! what was your methodology for teaching?

I find that good athletes just do a good job mimic’ing the pros,... or just “know” how to move their body efficiently.

but for talentless folks like myself, I find I need to deconstruct how to do things properly, to optimize my movements. even then, I’m 5’ft 4in and can only serve about 100 max (but on avg mid to low 90’s to have a chance of going in)

the serve doctor in the hip snap vid, to me makes sense, and he has a reputation for developing good junior servers.

If you're 5' 4" and serve in the 90s with consistency that is a very good serve.

As far as talent goes, years of effort and practice look a lot like talent to some people.

As far as methodology goes, it seems that so much of the online coaching has gone from basic fundamentals to an obsession with analyzing what every muscle limb and joint of the body is doing at any given time. Imagine trying to teach someone to type by analyzing what the fingers and joints are doing., That would be insane. Imagine watching slow motion video of someone swatting a fly and then claiming that in order to swat a fly you have to move your body in the exact same way as the person in the video. Its sounds like a silly comparison but it's not. It's the exact same thing. You dont need to tell people how to move their bodies to accomplish the serve for example, that's trying to work backwards. "Oh look at what the elbow is doing in this slow motion video of Federer ,that's what you have to do with your elbow". NO! You dont have to try and move your elbow like Federer, You practice serving and if you practice the fundamentals long enough your elbow will do what it's supposed to do.

If you like to deconstruct things to optimize your movements that's fine but deconstruct the right things, What a lot of these guys do is show you something and tell you its a spefic thing you need to do, like pronating on the serve which is absolutely 100% wrong. Literally half the ATP/WTA player dont pronate. The number one player in the world does not pronate through contact, Some of the best players in history didn't pronate. Why some people pronate and others dont is a mystery but it doesn't matter. My daughter pronates, I taught her how to serve and I never told her to pronate. It just happened naturally for her. I dont pronate on my serve.

[stroke]

To me, this style of serve Pat is teaching resembles Stan's serve style.

[nytennisaddict]

To me, this style of serve Pat is teaching resembles Stan's serve style.

that is exactly what made me appreciate Pat's serve style... i was always a proponent of leg drive, and rotation, but studying wawrinka's serve, to me, it seems there's hardly any leg drive.
experimenting with the hip thrust, when i time it right, it feels easier to accelerate the racquet. it's like an extreme load (ssc?) of my hip muscles... it kinda feels like a trip, then catch myself.

they do similar drills with javelin throwing: https://youtu.be/HxJnPUqF9i8?t=89
which look similar to pat's drills: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XO7IEHDkl0

NY,
You might find this instructive:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...lder_rotation/

And this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/the_myth/the_myth_of_the_archers_bow/

Pat is a friend of mine but we don't agree on this emphasis. And I don't think Brian's article needs an update. Why don't you look at is on court serve teaching progression?

thx John, that was perfect....

regarding the archers bow... that's interesting, i always thought the "bow" was formed by the hip (not by the arms)... at least that's how i interpretted that tip. hips in general

how do you explain wawrinka's serve? to me seems like not alot of rotation and knee bend, yet he explodes into the ball.

to me, it's unclear which technique is better... maybe this is generally a pinpoint vs. platform type discussion? but it seems there are # of power sources that can be used to general rhs into contact, and one style emphasizes one over the other.

[Error]

NYtennis,

You see inconsistency in technique between pro players and yet the results are great, makes you think about what fundamental things are really important?

Watch Boris Becker serve, he often steps into the court with his right foot which is like the old timers and the complete opposite of what most players do and yet he had one of the best serves ever and it would still be one of the best serves today. Guys like him and Edberg both of whom didn't pronate. Becker is on tape saying that serves were faster back then, that more players were hitting 140mph serves than today. Whether that's true or not I dont know but my point is there are only a few fundamental parts of the serve that matter. My theory is more knee bend benefits shorter players than taller ones because you need that extra push to catch the ball at a high contact point but that's just my observation. Sampras stuck his hip out.. Federer does not, Some people pronate some do not. Some players bring up the arm and racket at the same time, some do not. But they ALL of them serve amazingly well.

[nytennisaddict]

NYtennis,

You see inconsistency in technique between pro players and yet the results are great, makes you think about what fundamental things are really important?

Watch Boris Becker serve, he often steps into the court with his right foot which is like the old timers and the complete opposite of what most players do and yet he had one of the best serves ever and it would still be one of the best serves today. Guys like him and Edberg both of whom didn't pronate. Becker is on tape saying that serves were faster back then, that more players were hitting 140mph serves than today. Whether that's true or not I dont know but my point is there are only a few fundamental parts of the serve that matter. My theory is more knee bend benefits shorter players than taller ones because you need that extra push to catch the ball at a high contact point but that's just my observation. Sampras stuck his hip out.. Federer does not, Some people pronate some do not. Some players bring up the arm and racket at the same time, some do not. But they ALL of them serve amazingly well.

lol, honestly i just want a consistent serve that produces winners or sitters. if i could achieve that by doing a volley ball step up, with a 360 shoryuken move, i would :P
based on what your saying (this and previous comments), seems you're saying "just go practice alot until you look natural" :P (but i gotta believe there's more too... ie. serving technique is scultped not just born)

[johnyandell]

NY,
Did you read the Ultimate Fundamentals article on the serve?

[johnyandell]

Error,
Check out this BB clip. Pronation is a common term but inaccurate. Actually what turns the racket over is internal shoulder rotation. It's been measured and found to be a huge contributor to racket speed.
I agree with your basic point that over analyzing and focusing on things that are consequences rather than causes is counterproductive.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_serve/bb_arm_action/bb_arm_action.html?BB1stSDeuceArmActionCourtLevelFront.mov

[nytennisaddict]

NY,
Did you read the Ultimate Fundamentals article on the serve?

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ell/the_serve/
yup, i have...
helped me focus on keeping the contact more to the right of my head.... i have a tendency to always toss like i'm hitting a kicker (contact on left side of my head), even when i'm trying to hit a flat/"hard" slice/topslice first serve.

i've also been studying this one:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/3d_analysis_the_serve_wind_up/3d_analysis_the_serve_wind_up.html

[nytennisaddict]

NYtennis,

You see inconsistency in technique between pro players and yet the results are great, makes you think about what fundamental things are really important?

Watch Boris Becker serve, he often steps into the court with his right foot which is like the old timers and the complete opposite of what most players do and yet he had one of the best serves ever and it would still be one of the best serves today. Guys like him and Edberg both of whom didn't pronate. Becker is on tape saying that serves were faster back then, that more players were hitting 140mph serves than today. Whether that's true or not I dont know but my point is there are only a few fundamental parts of the serve that matter. My theory is more knee bend benefits shorter players than taller ones because you need that extra push to catch the ball at a high contact point but that's just my observation. Sampras stuck his hip out.. Federer does not, Some people pronate some do not. Some players bring up the arm and racket at the same time, some do not. But they ALL of them serve amazingly well.

presuming you're not hitting a waiters tray serve, i presume that all good serves at least will approach the contact on racquet edge, then pronate (open the face) just prior to contact... how much it continues to pronate after varies... but to me that first part to contact is the "pronation" part.

[Error]

presuming you're not hitting a waiters tray serve, i presume that all good serves at least will approach the contact on racquet edge, then pronate (open the face) just prior to contact... how much it continues to pronate after varies... but to me that first part to contact is the "pronation" part.

When people talk about pronation on serve they are talking about pronating through contact where the racket face ends up facing the side not coming up on edge, even if you're technically correct, which I'm not sure you are because depending on who you listen to some people claim that what we refer to as pronation isn't actually technically pronation but that's neither here nor there. I just think it would benefit people to get their focus back on fundamentals and to practice fundamentals and forget about all of these side issues that serve (pun intended) to confuse and complicate otherwise simple concepts.

[Error]

lol, honestly i just want a consistent serve that produces winners or sitters. if i could achieve that by doing a volley ball step up, with a 360 shoryuken move, i would :P
based on what your saying (this and previous comments), seems you're saying "just go practice alot until you look natural" :P (but i gotta believe there's more too... ie. serving technique is scultped not just born)

That's not exactly what I'm saying but close. What I'm saying is if you practice the correct things then all it takes is time and effort and its impossible not to develop an advanced serve. But if you practice the wrong things, like hip snap, you're probably going to find it impossible to develop into the player you want to be. I think even if you practice the correct fundamentals which are basically the right grip, stance, toss and contact, people just under estimate the time it takes. And I mean really under estimate. For example I was on court for about two hours today practicing nothing but serve. I'll do about an hour a day on average, 6 months out of the year and only occasionally when I have to pay for indoor court time during the winter months.

This still is no where near the amount of time my daughter has put into into her serve over the years. I think people look for shortcuts. They cant imagine that it really takes years of pretty much daily practice to get really good at anything.