The Serve: Probation!

[gzhpcu]

Brian, maybe what I am asking is: does supination occur automatically with a loose arm, or does one have to consciously think about doing it?

[bottle]

Brian, maybe what I am asking is: does supination occur automatically with a loose arm, or does one have to consciously think about doing it?

That seems like a good question.

But pending the answer I'm going to start it pretty consciously. I'm going to take the racket up to a right angle in one fell swoop. But won't arrange the strings directly above the hand.

They will be skewed 20 degrees toward the right fence. That will be the new hesitation point, the beginning point of any probation serve too.

Then the legs and body can bend as the racket keys up to vertical and keeps going...

As the driving legs counter the racket as it flies down to low point, i.e., pre the pro drop which will be higher and much too fast for the natural eye to see.

[seano]

Brian -

A few questions about racquet drop, sweeping motion to the outside, external shoulder rotation and loading the rear leg. Previously you had mentioned the "2 big ticket items" coming out of the upward swing were a) external to internal shoulder rotation b) elbow elevation to elbow extension. My questions are as follows:
1) Does the external shoulder rotation stop when the racquet has dropped to it furthest point in the backswing or when it is done the "sweeping motion to the outside" (racquet aligns with the elbow)?
2) If you could only choose one, which is more important, a racquet drop that's as deep as possible (elbow elevation to extension) but not as much sweeping or more sweeping motion to the outside (external to internal rotation) but less racquet drop? I know in an ideal world you would want both.
3) Why is it so important to not start the internal shoulder rotation until the elbow has fully extended?
4) I understand the role of the legs and how indirectly they set the arm up to create the power in the serve but still alittle confused about the role of loading of the rear leg. Dr. Mark Kovacs emphasizes "rear leg loading" as one of the most vital parts of the serve, you emphasize it but not to his extent. Dr. Kovacs theory is "down and back" with the rear leg allows for more "up and forward" in the upward swing (for every action, there's an opposite and equal reaction). Can you give me your thoughts on "rear leg loading"?

Thanks again for your reply and for your incredible video series.

SeanO

[BrianGordon]

Thanks for the comments and words of encouragement. Glad some found the video (and series) at least entertaining and interesting if not informative. I suppose the man in black analogy should be amended to the man in black that needs to get his weight challenged ass in the gym - one would think that 10-14 hours a day on the court in Florida heat would keep one in better shape - one would be mistaken lol.

Postpre - It is very important. The strings facing forward is a detriment to flatter and slice serves and neutral to the kick serves. An orientation like this entering the backswing dictates a lateral (rather than diagonal entry) fundamentally altering the path the elbow must take and therefore making the extension of the elbow less relevant to racquet speed development. It becomes in essence an ESR to ISR dominated motion without as much useful contribution from elbow straightening. Eliminating some sources of racquet speed puts more responsibility on others and probably more load on the joint responsible for them - in short, don't like it.

Stotty - I also have had some that violate the synchrony in reverse (always boys) which I've found to have longer term consequences to the shoulder in some cases. The probation restriction is the best tool I've found to solve the problem.

gzhpcu - initiation of the drop generally requires a brief low-grade muscular boost from the shoulder external rotators (more if using the internally rotated enhancement I mentioned) and the elbow flexors. Supination occurs during the transition from the end of the back swing as I define it to the early upward swing and is a fairly passive event with proper leg drive and a diagonal entry due mostly to the momentum built in the backswing. As the reversal to internal rotation occurs during the back swing it is likely partially responsible for the supination.

[BrianGordon]

Sean - we posted at the same time.

1. Sweeping
2. Both but sweeping if I had to choose.
3. ISR changes the axis of elbow extension - any extension after ISR will cause the forearm/hand/racquet to move up/laterally rather than up/forward. Also though not generally an issue in tennis internally rotating the humerus with the elbow bent puts a lot of stress on the ulnar collateral ligament of the elbow joint i.e. Tommy John.
4. The back leg is weighted more to ensure that the ground reaction force passes behind the center of mass (in a side view) when the legs are extended - this is required to generate forward rotation. I have no idea what Kovac's rationale is but from what little I've seen of his presentation I believe he is thinking more transitionally (forward acceleration) rather than rotationally (forward angular momentum) - I could be wrong.

[gzhpcu]

One last question Brian in respect to reaching the probation point: how important is it to keep the palm of your hand down? Thank you

[lovati4]

We agree that the knees should begin to extend just before the backswing. Why is it such a big problem for many players, often in a long term? From athletic point of view these are simple motions. So the question is timing.
Let’s s discuss several points here.
a. All body movements are directed by the head with a constant feedback and adjustment. Many movements do not need any conscious effort, for example bouncing a ball by a good player (before a serve). Many can do it even without looking at the ball. This might happen because the head remembers the rhythm of this motion. It is repeated with the same speed, acceleration (deceleration). Without even looking at the ball the head knows the timing.
b. Why is timing of the knee extension is much more difficult? One thing is attention which is divided between many things during the serve including a ball toss. Ball toss takes a lot of attention. Very little attention is left for timing of knee extension and the begining of the backswing. During learning phase conscious attention might be very important.
If so we need to minimize distractions from the motion (timing and rhythm) we are learning. One possibility that comes to mind is learning a ball toss (the hand path, a point of release, timing) in advance. If a player is confident in her toss then she can focus her attention on timing and associated feelings of the knee motion and the beginning of the backswing.
I pretty sure that players with a natural ball toss can learn good serve motion much faster than players struggling with it.
c. Timing of the beginning of knee extension is also difficult because knees go down first in a rather slow motion. It takes time to decelerate, stop and acceleration legs up. I think that players cannot change this motion much. If duration of the whole leg motion is constant then the only possibility is to adjust the timing of the hand with a racquet motion. During the wind up the hand and the racquet accelerate first. Brian Gordon suggests for the racquet to decelerate (may be even stop) by the trophy position.
d. Why is it so difficult? It is not a physiological problem. It is a rhythm problem with initial acceleration and then deceleration of the hand and the racquet before the trophy position. From the point of view of mechanics and mind it is easier to decelerate the racquet smoothly (without an abrupt stop of the motion).
e. How to practice this key motion? If we agree that key difficulty here is the rhythm and the way the head manages it then the movement should be practiced with a similar rhythm simplifying the movement in other ways. One possibility is a shadow movement without an actual ball toss. A player has to visualize the ball path. It is quite easy and the player can focus almost all his attention on the racquet deceleration into the trophy position and getting there the moment knees begin to extend (for the legs to go up).

[bottle]

Humbug. How are you going to get a nice easy turn of the hips if the legs are stiff? You'll need an awful lot of WD-40 .

[BrianGordon]

gzhpcu - Not sure I understand your question but... in a probation serve you start at the hesitation point so how you get there makes no difference - the palm is facing the side fence (or slightly down with the internal rotation enhancement). I suspect you are asking about a full motion. With abbreviated motions the palm will face down during much of the windup. With pendulum motions and no hesitation the palm can face down over most of the windup. For pendulum motions with hesitation you absolutely don't want the palm to face down - very inefficient in reaching the hesitation point.

lovati4 - Not sure if your post includes questions for me or food for thought for the crew. If for me - I don't know why it is so difficult - your explanations and solutions seem fine. I can only speak for my players that were taught/allowed to develop without regard for proper mechanics as I define them - as such they have a lot of motor malware that is very difficult to reprogram.

[bottle]

Apology

gzhpcu - Not sure I understand your question but... in a probation serve you start at the hesitation point so how you get there makes no difference - the palm is facing the side fence (or slightly down with the internal rotation enhancement). I suspect you are asking about a full motion. With abbreviated motions the palm will face down during much of the windup. With pendulum motions and no hesitation the palm can face down over most of the windup. For pendulum motions with hesitation you absolutely don't want the palm to face down - very inefficient in reaching the hesitation point.

lovati4 - Not sure if your post includes questions for me or food for thought for the crew. If for me - I don't know why it is so difficult - your explanations and solutions seem fine. I can only speak for my players that were taught/allowed to develop without regard for proper mechanics as I define them - as such they have a lot of motor malware that is very difficult to reprogram.

In light of the second paragraph I re-read # 37 and saw that my objection to the first sentence was based more on my knowledge of a golf backswing (knees and hips engineering a slow take-a-way to initiate all movement).

A similar thing happens in many service motions, but I see now that you, lovati4, were referring to the crucial part of the tract where racket going down strives to be synchronized with legs going up.

Sorry about that.

[lovati4]

That's OK.

[stroke]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php

This is the Todd Martin serve, a link from one our forum contributors Jeff Counts. Todd to me seems to have a prototype Probation serve. He even seems to have that internally rotated arm "probation" position or hesitation point position of approximately 20% to 30% that Brian stated he finds desirable.

[bottle]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php

This is the Todd Martin serve, a link from one our forum contributors Jeff Counts. Todd to me seems to have a prototype Probation serve.

See second motion at A NEW YEAR'S SERVE today, # 4726, for something similar though a bit different.

[bottle]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php

This is the Todd Martin serve, a link from one our forum contributors Jeff Counts. Todd to me seems to have a prototype Probation serve. He even seems to have that internally rotated arm "probation" position or hesitation point position of approximately 20% to 30% that Brian stated he finds desirable.

Exactly. I'm opting for 20 degrees off TDC in motion 2, # 4726 but am employing a different toss structure from Todd Martin which I hope is an improvement on Todd. But if I can't beat Todd I may join him.

But...beat Todd, Bottle, are you serious? I don't mean beat Todd Martin in a tennis match but beat him in design.

Design of course will only take a player so far. Success will be more about how one uses the design. But as Jim Courier once said to a mass TV audience, "Don't expect logic on the tour."

That says to me that some design ideas at the top level of tennis are just as questionable as those at the bottom level.

[don_budge]

Your thoughts on Brian Gordon's "The Serve: Probation!"?

Thanks for the comments and words of encouragement. Glad some found the video (and series) at least entertaining and interesting if not informative. I suppose the man in black analogy should be amended to the man in black that needs to get his weight challenged ass in the gym - one would think that 10-14 hours a day on the court in Florida heat would keep one in better shape - one would be mistaken lol.

Yeah...where does one find the time? Caught between the yearning for love and the struggle for the legal tender as Jackson Browne sang in "The Pretender".

But you are absolutely project a very believable, intelligent and credible image in the videos and I have come away with two great takeaways in the teaching of the service motion and a very serious question.

The "Probation" segment is an excellent place to begin in correcting any improprieties in motions that not totally free of friction. I worked with my protege, Gustaf, several times in the past couple of weeks and today I sent him a message that said..."We should try to complete the installation of the perfect frictionless motion and introduce the idea of supreme confidence in the motion. Serve and volley." So much progress was made in ironing out the little kinks and points of friction by referring to this "Probation" point and then trying to get the backswing right to get the student in this position with the right timing going forwards. So I have to hand it to you in this regard...an excellent teaching tool and thanks for sharing.

Secondly the idea of what you refer to as "forward rotation" as opposed to "twist rotation". A very important distinction as well that makes it easier to explain to the student as to what exactly it is that we are trying to accomplish with our body rotation.

Synchronizing the Legs…Dr. Brian Gordon

Transcribed from the video below:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...zing_the_legs/

But for the most part the whole thing is set up to produce a forward rotation and not a twisting rotation.

Again to be very, very clear, whether she comes into this continuously or whether she stops her racquet in a hesitation point, the leg drive should commence exactly as the racquet breaks into the backswing and conclude exactly as the racquet exits the backswing. That would indicate perfect timing. It’s very, very important that timing is correct because you may have noticed that in Kayla when I take her into this position of external rotation I’m basically having to crank her shoulder right out of her body.

That’s because you cannot really do that in a static situation. The only way that this can be done in a real way is if her shoulder is incredibly relaxed.The only way she can relax her shoulder is if this external rotation is being caused by something other than a muscular activity doing this. The action that will do it is if she pushes with her legs up a force will be applied to her arm here and because of the orientation that force to the racquet it will make the racquet essentially go down her back as a function of inertia.

I'm so glad that I transcribed this particular segment of your serving lesson. There are several pearls in this that deserve to be mentioned and repeated over and over.

The question that I do raise is that in the video you express that it doesn't matter in what manner the student gets to this "hesitation point" and I found that to be a very interesting statement. My suggestion to my student/protege to serve and volley with this motion in place is to get him to the next level of serving which is thoughtful tactics and possible outcomes when coming to the net behind it. Once he gets the feeling of this frictionless motion I want him to feel that he can challenge even the best returners with his perfect motion to give him that supreme confidence in his serve so that he just glares over the net as if to say to his opponent..."You can't touch this".

For me this is all what you call pendulum backswing. This is a backswing wholly dependent upon the concept of "inertia" and it matches the loop that is made behind the back in the motion not to mention the loop made coming out of the loop to produce the forwards swing. To me...it is hugely rhythm that produces a great service motion and therefore great tactics. Equal parts spin, placement and speed. Any combination or permutation of the three that the server decides to use to attack the defending returner. Only with this sense of "fatalism" that if you miss the first serve you go ahead with the same perfect motion knowing full well that the motion is so good it would be impossible to miss two in a row.

Good stuff Doctor Brian. Some really substantial food for thought. For the student and the teacher.