Two-handed Backhand Stances & One-handed Slice

[don_budge]

One dimensional play can bring great results. Getting really good at one thing can make you tough to beat. Djokovic does mostly one thing when you think about it. The problem is he's awfully good at it and even has a winning head to head against the most versatile player ever to wield a racket.

The thing is it's nice to teach an array of shots because most players are better off with having options. Plus, it's more fun for the coach and makes the job more tenable.

A couple of problems with the Novak Djokovic versus Roger Federer analogy:

1. Novak is much younger that Roger and the second half of these head to head sort of reflect this disparity in age. Djokovic has beaten Roger with younger legs. I have been writing this for a couple of years.

2. The conditions are set up for the Djokovic game. When things play faster Roger can still make Djokovic look like a fish out of water. He simply doesn't have the game to fit the circumstances. But as it is even the hallowed grass at Wimbledon plays like a velcro surface. It has been this way for years.

But of course the two handed game is a very viable option and one can learn to play it well and effectively. Particularly so if the player's coach encourages this.

[lovati4]

At some point coaches teach their players to stay longer with a shot. It means longer followthough. But it also means keeping the whole body (hips and both legs) in line with a shot a little longer.
Kerry Mitchell called it true alignment. https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nded_backhand/
The 3rd element is good weight transfer during a stroke.
There might be a compromise here between quality of the stroke and ability to get back to the middle of the baseline more quickly. In my view the former is more important. Staying in line with a shot allows a player to keep better balance during the stroke which leads to better quality and consistency.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...3%20250fps.mp4

[stotty]

A couple of problems with the Novak Djokovic versus Roger Federer analogy:

1. Novak is much younger that Roger and the second half of these head to head sort of reflect this disparity in age. Djokovic has beaten Roger with younger legs. I have been writing this for a couple of years.

Not convinced. Roger has been a better player in his 30s than his 20s. Five of Roger's wins were when Novak was in his teens; and two aged 20. Since 2011 Novak has won over two thirds of their encounters and is ahead in big events. He's just that bit better, not all the time, but two thirds of the time he is, and he's done it with a more limited game style. He's a lot more difficult to beat than just sliding balls in low to his forehand or coaxing him to the net. Look how quickly he got used to Medvedev's extraordinary hooked backhands. Novak learns quick. He's bright.

I am am happy to give Roger the GOAT title for the number of slams he's won, his longevity, and his services to the game. But when it comes to the Big 4, Novak is the best.

[stotty]

At some point coaches teach their players to stay longer with a shot. It means longer followthough. But it also means keeping the whole body (hips and both legs) in line with a shot a little longer.
Kerry Mitchell called it true alignment. https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nded_backhand/
The 3rd element is good weight transfer during a stroke.
There might be a compromise here between quality of the stroke and ability to get back to the middle of the baseline more quickly. In my view the former is more important. Staying in line with a shot allows a player to keep better balance during the stroke which leads to better quality and consistency.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...3%20250fps.mp4

Good point about compromising to get back to the middle. I think the open stance is a neat way to give yourself a split second more time to do that. But, yes, commitment must come before recovery, no question.

[lovati4]

What do you think of the idea of having legs close to the line of the shot? In a neutral or closed stance players keep their back leg behind the body during the whole stroke. Playing in an open stance he (she) brings his (her) front leg closer to the line of the shot.
For example

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/ND_BH_Center&stroke=ND%20BH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Rear1%20250fps.mp4

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/ND_BH_Center&stroke=ND%20BH%20Center%20OpenStance%20Rear%20250fps.mp4

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/ND_BH_Wide&stroke=ND%20BH%20Wide%20OpenStance%20Side%20250fps.mp4

Players might be doing this naturally to keep hips from rotating too much too soon, to keep better balance during the stroke.
Do you see Owen doing that?

[stotty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoSN...ature=youtu.be

I think Owen is under pressure with the feeds and doesn't always hold the line with shots or get true alignment...at least not for long enough. On some he does, some he doesn't I think the fifth shot in he does a great shot and keeps his balance beautifully. It will be interesting when I do some high speed filming when I see him tomorrow. We will get a better view then.

I found Kerry's article interesting but wouldn't necessarily follow it. Teaching open stance first in a player's development risks too many things going wrong. The great thing about stepping in is key things happen by default. I can see what John means about the difficulty of the extreme closed stance but still think a player like Owen could pull that off relatively easily because he has learnt to hit an open stance quite well and this has developed good balance because of it. I feel this prepares a player well for every backhand scenario there is. Don't forget Owen is a case study, a study aimed at whether a typical junior player can hit off ANY stance easily if taught in a sequenced, timely fashion. Because I believe difficult might only be difficult because coaches teach one way for too long...me included. Neutral, closed, more closed, fully closed, semi open, fully open...do the whole lot. Another year and I will post Owen doing all those things, for sure.

But I would't teach open stance first. I wouldn't teach it on the forehand either. That kind of stuff is too dicey for me. Combinations of neutral and fairly closed work well to get a player started in my view. Just don't wait too long to open up.

[lovati4]

Thank you for the reply.
Actually there is one more stance we have not talk about yet. I noticed than Novak Djokovic prefers it when returning serves with a backhand. In this stance a player steps across the body hitting the ball before landing on the front foot - with his front foot in the air. I think It is not just a variation of a closed stance. It is one of the main stances.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4
I notice that I play like that naturally (while returning a serve) on my forehand side - stepping across and hitting the ball with my front foot in the air. But on the backhand side it does not come naturally to me.
So I decided to check high speed archive on Tennispayer to see how often Novak Djokovic returns a serve in this stance.
Results are presented in Table 1.

Table 1 Novak Djokovic's returns of serve with a backhand

First serve returns
	1	2
Number of times	8	13
%	62	100
Second serve returns
	1	2
Number of times	15	22
%	68	100

where,
1 - closed stance with a front foot in the air
2 - total number of backhand returns of serve

Closer look at the video shows that his feet movement is even more interesting. He pivots on his left foot opening his left hip (super little move), then he might take 1-2 more adjustment steps if he has time and then he steps with his right foot across hitting the ball before landing on the front foot. This step may be quite small. This is what I expected.
But this is not all. Novak seems to kick back with his left leg at the same time. Actually it looks funny. It might help Novak keep balance, one of the key elements of a high-quality stroke.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1%20120fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...r%20500fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4

[bottle]

Who says stroke mechanics can't be fun?

[stotty]

Thank you for the reply.
Actually there is one more stance we have not talk about yet. I noticed than Novak Djokovic prefers it when returning serves with a backhand. In this stance a player steps across the body hitting the ball before landing on the front foot - with his front foot in the air. I think It is not just a variation of a closed stance. It is one of the main stances.
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4
I notice that I play like that naturally (while returning a serve) on my forehand side - stepping across and hitting the ball with my front foot in the air. But on the backhand side it does not come naturally to me.
So I decided to check high speed archive on Tennispayer to see how often Novak Djokovic returns a serve in this stance.
Results are presented in Table 1.

Table 1 Novak Djokovic's returns of serve with a backhand

First serve returns
	1	2
Number of times	8	13
%	62	100
Second serve returns
	1	2
Number of times	15	22
%	68	100

where,
1 - closed stance with a front foot in the air
2 - total number of backhand returns of serve

Closer look at the video shows that his feet movement is even more interesting. He pivots on his left foot opening his left hip (super little move), then he might take 1-2 more adjustment steps if he has time and then he steps with his right foot across hitting the ball before landing on the front foot. This step may be quite small. This is what I expected.
But this is not all. Novak seems to kick back with his left leg at the same time. Actually it looks funny. It might help Novak keep balance, one of the key elements of a high-quality stroke.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1%20120fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...r%20500fps.mp4
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...4%20250fps.mp4

Isn't this scissoring? Like in the Kerry Mitchell article? The most explosive type of alignment? Anything Novak does on return of serve is worth looking at because he returns better than anyone else. Certainly the clips you sourced are very revealing. I think scissoring is all about getting maximum power and control then regaining balance.

I think Roger does the same thing with his one-hander in given situations, so it's not exclusive to the two-handed brigade.

My youngest son scissors as a fun shot when he plays socially with friends.

[lovati4]

I would like to share the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igjlOjioJNc
In the video Pat Dougherty discusses many topics we have been discussing in Two-handed backhand stances in a tennis match (Djokovic vs Khachanov, 2018) and in this forum.
When I look at the girl taking a step and hitting the ball with her front foot in the air I see why she is gently kicking her left foot back at the same time (from 2:50). It is clearly the matter of balance.
Can we call it a stance? According to Marian-Webster stance is "the position of both body and feet from which an athlete starts or operates". In our case the player places her feet in an open stance, takes a step and finally lands in a closed stance. The girl starts in an open (semi open) stance but it is not an open stance backhand. Then she takes a step but her front foot has not landed yet. This is not a closed stance either.
I would call it a stance (position or set up) though with two distinctive features: a) one foot is off the ground (I am sure we can find such stances in other sports), b) an athlete can keep this stance only for short period of time. She has to execute her upper body motion in this time interval.
At the same time this definition might seem a bit shaky to some people. Pat Dougherty called it a load and lunge transfer step.

[lovati4]

Stotty, may be you are right. In some of Novak video clips he mostly jumps up crisscrossing his legs at the same time. But in many videos Novak makes a step transferring his weight on a diagonal like the girl in Pat Dougherty's video. That is what I was looking at. It is possible to see a distinction between these two movements.

[stotty]

Nice video of Pat's. To me scissoring or whatever you want to call it is just an device to keep balance after the open stance strike. It also looks like a great way to transfer weight and momentum. Looks terrific to me when I see kids do it. It takes good split second timing to get the move right.

I classify 'stance' as the way the feet are set up 'on the ground' before executing the shot. Scissoring is more what is happening in mid-air and I am not sure that qualifies as a stance. I am not that big on terming everything to the letter. What happens happens and so long as I can see it and understand it, I feel no need to name it specifically.

[lovati4]

I also like it. Novak and the girl execute their backhands very well landing with good balance. Since a player can not rely on the stationary stance they need very good timing. I think it takes a lot of practice. It might be the most complicated movement on the backhand side.

[stotty]

I also like it. Novak and the girl execute their backhands very well landing with good balance. Since a player can not rely on the stationary stance they need very good timing. I think it takes a lot of practice. It might be the most complicated movement on the backhand side.

It might not be that difficult. I may have Owen have a go at it later today. Once kids have mastered the semi open stance, moving to a more advanced method still may not be as difficult as it seems. I will be inclined to show Owen a clip of Novak or the girl and say, "copy that". He might be able to do it from just watching them. Some kids are great like that.

The question I ask myself with all the kids I teach is: are they going to need it, need it for the level of tennis they are likely to achieve?

[lovati4]

We can take a look at Novak Djokovic forehand return with a similar motion. https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...t%20250fps.mp4
This movement seems much easier to me than on a backhand side. Novak takes a step hitting the ball before landing on his front foot. It may be easier because of the left arm. It is free and a player can use his left arm to keep balance while taking a step and hitting the ball with his front foot still in the air.