Two-handed Backhand Stances & One-handed Slice

[stotty]

Owen is a case study I'm doing on the two-handed backhand. My theory is players might be able to play comfortably off all the stances if they are taught early enough and in a timely way. The open stance, which is often taught too late and sometimes not taught at all, doesn't have to be the preserve of elite players. Regular juniors can learn it too.

In my experience, if the open stance backhand is taught too late in a junior's development, they will never be truly comfortable with it. It has to be taught when they are young.

I feel learning the open stance is the lynchpin to having a truly versatile two-handed backhand. Learning it will improve a player's balance through their entire game, not just their backhand, and they will be able to hit great backhands in every situation under the sun.

I started working on Owen's sliced backhand very early in his development. We worked on it for significant periods (not just five minutes here and there) with the aim that, if his sliced backhand were viewed in isolation, no one would suspect he was a two-handed player.

I started all the above elements quite early in Owen's development and over a long period of time. I think he's doing pretty well. You judge for yourselves.

So....what are your thoughts?

Are players more comfortable hitting backhands off neutral and closed stances simply because these stances are predominantly taught for too long in a player's development? Do you have a different view?

And what about the sliced backhand of a two-handed player? Do they have to look so stiff and awkward? Most seem to. Or if a two-handed player is taught a sliced backhand earlier in their development, will it develop to be more fluent, more natural?

Owen is 14. He plays twice a week; a 45 minute lesson on Wednesdays and a squad on Fridays. He also plays socially with his friends on Saturdays. He is by no means an elite junior but he has got talent. He has played just seven tournaments so far as a junior. He does have a regular place in a local adult double league.

Sorry if the film quality isn't great. It was tipping with rain and cold but Owen was keen to be filmed all the same. He's a smashing kid...one of the best.

Two-hander

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70rpw8

Sliced Backhand

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70rpy2

lovati4, here are the Youtube versions for you:

https://youtu.be/PodMbI3kStM

https://youtu.be/EoSNCCZ_5SQ

[johnyandell]

I like it! Would love to see in high speed. Could extend the followthroughs a bit on both--you'd expect me to say that. But the kid looks great. Springy and intense!

[stotty]

I like it! Would love to see in high speed. Could extend the followthroughs a bit on both--you'd expect me to say that. But the kid looks great. Springy and intense!

Oddly enough when Owen and I looked at the clip we both felt the followthrough was a little short...snatchy. He also leans out of his closed stance a little early to get back to the middle of the baseline.

Okay I will do high speed next Wednesday.

[doctorhl]

What amount of topspin is he naturally getting on his two hander and is it what you are looking for in his situation? Same question for amount of backspin on one hander.

[stotty]

What amount of topspin is he naturally getting on his two hander and is it what you are looking for in his situation? Same question for amount of backspin on one hander.

He gets a good amount of topspin on his backhand. I am not sure how to quantify it for you but it's about right for his age and the power of his stroke. He hits under and through his sliced backhand beautifully and it's flight is really good. I believe it is as fluent other players' who play entirely one-handed.

My point with this thread is that coaches might want to start teaching these things early, teaching the whole gamut over a long period of time is the perhaps wisest thing a coach might ever do. Once a coach has over focused on just a couple of shots, it's tough to play catch up for the shots (or stances) deemed less important and which are then taught later down the line. By that time you might have confined a player or at the very least made life more difficult for them.

I coach the number one girl in my county. Another coach 30 miles away also coaches her. He hasn't put a foot wrong when it comes to teaching her forehands, backhands and serve, but has hardly spent any time on her volleys, smash or sliced backhand. The coach is 25 years old. That says a lot. She has a fine sliced backhand, though, because I have seen to that.

Players need some talent but they perhaps don't have to be world beaters to able to do lots of things the pro's do. Owen is rock solid proof you can hit a two-hander off any stance and have a fine one-handed sliced backhand to boot.

My advice is to work on everything, chip away over a long period of time. Think long term not short term.

[doctorhl]

Couldn’t agree more. Having all the shots pays off later when one is expected to play on all surfaces and when one begins to encounter more fit and athletic opponents. One dimensional play no longer produces victories.

[don_budge]

He gets a good amount of topspin on his backhand. I am not sure how to quantify it for you but it's about right for his age and the power of his stroke. He hits under and through his sliced backhand beautifully and it's flight is really good. I believe it is as fluent other players' who play entirely one-handed.

I haven't seen the video. But your response to doctorhi was interesting. Not sure how to quantify it? Because you cannot. So the best thing to do is to qualify it. When you spoke of the sliced backhand you mention the "ball flight". This is where you start. But what about the slice backhand? Which flight? There are many, many flights that a ball can take...particularly with the slice.

When I am working with a student I often refer to the shape of their shot as it relates to the shape of their swing. Recently I was working with a practice partner on his forehand backswing and in effect it changed the shape of his swing...which by no coincidence changed the shape of his shot.

To describe the amount of topspin a student is generating you look at the shape of the shot and the net clearance and depth of the shot in combination. Of course you take into consideration the speed as well. All of the elements of control...which is essentially power.

Does the student have the ability to drive the ball two meters over the net with good pace and still bring the ball down inside the baseline? That tells me that he is generating a lot of spin.

Thanks for you thread...they always turn into interesting discussion. My current interest in two-handed backhands is rather mute at the moment. I am going to take a sabbatical from teaching and concentrate on seeing what I can generate out of myself. Who knows? I might just do a klacr and post myself. Ready forum...take aim and fire.

[arturohernandez]

My advice is to work on everything, chip away over a long period of time. Think long term not short term.

Yes, I agree. I think that there is a premium placed on repetition under the same conditions. Matches are nothing like that. Players get tired. They mishit balls. God forbid we have to play someone weird who hits two handed on both sides or plays only with extreme slice.

Kids are also good at improvising and playing around with things to see if they work.

In some ways, this reminds of Chris Lewitt and his take on Spanish tennis training.

It is in some ways not really technical per se. Rather the students are put in lots of situations and given an intentionality.

Then they react and adjust accordingly.

I liked both strokes but they seemed a bit ballistic.

It would be nice to have him try and be fluid and not worry so much about pace but more about feeling the ball.

Maybe ask him to hit soft deep lobs to change up his rhythm.

[doctorhl]

I haven't seen the video. But your response to doctorhi was interesting. Not sure how to quantify it? Because you cannot. So the best thing to do is to qualify it. When you spoke of the sliced backhand you mention the "ball flight". This is where you start. But what about the slice backhand? Which flight? There are many, many flights that a ball can take...particularly with the slice.

When I am working with a student I often refer to the shape of their shot as it relates to the shape of their swing. Recently I was working with a practice partner on his forehand backswing and in effect it changed the shape of his swing...which by no coincidence changed the shape of his shot.

To describe the amount of topspin a student is generating you look at the shape of the shot and the net clearance and depth of the shot in combination. Of course you take into consideration the speed as well. All of the elements of control...which is essentially power.

Does the student have the ability to drive the ball two meters over the net with good pace and still bring the ball down inside the baseline? That tells me that he is generating a lot of spin.

Thanks for you thread...they always turn into interesting discussion. My current interest in two-handed backhands is rather mute at the moment. I am going to take a sabbatical from teaching and concentrate on seeing what I can generate out of myself. Who knows? I might just do a klacr and post myself. Ready forum...take aim and fire.

Shaping the ball flight?? Sounds like golf to me and makes sense. Visualize the flight shape, let the computer determine the speed/spin ratio. Flight path feedback will reinforce swing shape. As Peter Freeman has said: " develop a baseline rally ball that cannot be easily attacked". So, create shapes to do that----sometimes slice, sometimes flat, sometimes topspin. . What influences swing shape? Body type and conditioning I suppose. Federer seems to rarely significantly change his backswing shape, but somehow can alter the forward swing and significantly shape different flight paths.

[don_budge]

Shaping the ball flight?? Sounds like golf to me and makes sense. Visualize the flight shape, let the computer determine the speed/spin ratio. Flight path feedback will reinforce swing shape. As Peter Freeman has said: " develop a baseline rally ball that cannot be easily attacked". So, create shapes to do that----sometimes slice, sometimes flat, sometimes topspin. . What influences swing shape? Body type and conditioning I suppose. Federer seems to rarely significantly change his backswing shape, but somehow can alter the forward swing and significantly shape different flight paths.

Absolutely spot on. The shape of the shot can be determined by the shape of the backswing in conjunction with the shape of the follow through and all points in between. In other words...the shape of your shot whether it is a tennis ball or a golf ball is going to be determined by how the racquet or the club passes through the intended flight of the ball. Interesting that golf clubs come in different lofts...and you can manipulate the loft of the tennis racquet as well. Particularly on the slice backhand. All golf shots are hit with underpin...intentionally. You can add loft to your racquet or deloft it.

Swing shape can be influenced also by the footwork. Certain stances will encourage more or less spin.

As for Stotty's student he makes a very nice pass at the ball. The balls sort of look to be spoon fed so the kid is doing what he prefers to do with the ball which appears to me is to hit it fairly flat (not a lot of spin) but with a "modicum" of overspin with a flat trajectory. This is the preferred starting model. He makes such a nice swing through the "path of the ball" that with just a subtle manipulation of the backswing or the racquet face he will be able to change and control the trajectory, spin and speed. I have yet to look at his slice. I know if I do and I like his swing my question will be..."why not one hand"?

[stotty]

"why not one hand"?

Good question! Because he prefers the two-hander. It’'s his choice. He can hit a one hander too. That’'s part of the deal. Every lesson he spends a few minutes hitting one-handed backhands. He’'s actually quite familiar with the shot.

The two-hander is a great shot in the right hands. It’'s every bit as good as a one-hander and maybe a tad better. It has the edge on return of serve for sure according to Connors, Agassi and Novak.

The main thing for me is to get their slice backhand as good as any one-hander out there, which is entirely possible if the shot is taught from a young age and allocated plenty of time in a player’s development, not 5 minutes here and there.

A two-handed player can have the best of both worlds by developing a really good sliced backhand.

[stotty]

As for Stotty's student he makes a very nice pass at the ball. The balls sort of look to be spoon fed so the kid is doing what he prefers to do with the ball which appears to me is to hit it fairly flat (not a lot of spin) but with a "modicum" of overspin with a flat trajectory. This is the preferred starting model. He makes such a nice swing through the "path of the ball" that with just a subtle manipulation of the backswing or the racquet face he will be able to change and control the trajectory, spin and speed. I have yet to look at his slice. I know if I do and I like his swing my question will be..."why not one hand"?

He hits a bit more than a modicum. It's about the perfect amount, whatever that is; I just know it when I see it. A lot of two-handed backhands you see at Wimbledon are struck almost flat. If I see a two-hander with too much spin I tend to think something must be wrong with it.

The balls aren't spoon fed. He knows where they are going but has work to do to spot what to do. If the ball is fed wide but a little up the court he will step in and across, if it's wide and lateral/or deep he will hit open. It's very easy to get it wrong and opt for the less optimal stance without plenty of trial and error practice. Owen nearly always gets it right these days.

[stotty]

It would be nice to have him try and be fluid and not worry so much about pace but more about feeling the ball.

Maybe ask him to hit soft deep lobs to change up his rhythm.

He is very fluid already. As John says, he just needs to improve his follow through. He's good at changing pace and rhythm. He's also pretty good at throwing in a sliced backhand to change things up.

Owen only plays around 3 hours a week maximum so we can only go so fast. He is a good example because players like Owen are the typical staple for many coaches the world over. He has bit of talent but only plays so much. Most coaches will relate to a student like Owen because they exist in every club.

[stotty]

Couldn’t agree more. Having all the shots pays off later when one is expected to play on all surfaces and when one begins to encounter more fit and athletic opponents. One dimensional play no longer produces victories.

One dimensional play can bring great results. Getting really good at one thing can make you tough to beat. Djokovic does mostly one thing when you think about it. The problem is he's awfully good at it and even has a winning head to head against the most versatile player ever to wield a racket.

The thing is it's nice to teach an array of shots because most players are better off with having options. Plus, it's more fun for the coach and makes the job more tenable.

[don_budge]

He hits a bit more than a modicum. It's about the perfect amount, whatever that is; I just know it when I see it. A lot of two-handed backhands you see at Wimbledon are struck almost flat. If I see a two-hander with too much spin I tend to think something must be wrong with it.

The balls aren't spoon fed. He knows where they are going but has work to do to spot what to do. If the ball is fed wide but a little up the court he will step in and across, if it's wide and lateral/or deep he will hit open. It's very easy to get it wrong and opt for the less optimal stance without plenty of trial and error practice. Owen nearly always gets it right these days.

It's perfect. Nice job.