Son's Forehand

[postpre]

I recorded a few serves today. He wasn't going big. The first couple were without the use of much legs, with narrow platform (taking cues from Brian Gordon, Macci). I've been wanting him to interact with his back leg more but it doesn't come easy for him (with his usual slightly wider platform). Putting his feet closer together tends to simplify weight transfer issues and allows him to feel more weight on the back leg. Also, you may not be able to catch this due to the quality of the video, but he tends to take a little bit of ESR into the beginning of the racquet drop. Even Fed, Sampras, Raonic, etc., lay the wrist back a bit to facilitate the racket drop. I'm not sure what to think about this. Let me know if you see anything with his technique that you find problematic or that can lead to injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYux...Wd31Ih9o2WPw8Q

Sorry, the video was private when it was initially downloaded. It's public now.

[don_budge]

Wiggle Room...

There is always wiggle room in all of this. From the timing of the release of the left hand to the width of the service stance. At a certain point one must allow for individualistic interpretation and creative interpretations as long as fundamentally everything is sound. What is unsound is the point of intervention.

The question of stance width was raised in the thread about the Brian Gordon video on stance. A very valid point too. I don't think that you can take things overly literal.

Looks more like he just compromised between the two stances more than picking one. Also I was looking for some data to back up the opinions he stated, but it seemed he hasn't gone that far yet? I can see why he likes the platform better with less moving parts and easier to teach.

Interesting question. The narrower stance on the platform raised my eyebrows also. I would advocate a wider stance myself but this comes down to feel for the player. Not ultimates dictated from the coach...or even "The Great Brian Gordon". Differences between advocates is not a problem. Sometimes it does come down to quantitative versus qualitative. In the end...I tend to be qualitative. In fact...not just tends but wholly. I am interested in the quantitative now as well as Brian has peaked my interest with the videos. It certainly gives me a better feel for his explanations when I can watch and see how he expresses his ideas. A qualitative approach to quantitative reasoning.

I recorded a few serves today. He wasn't going big. The first couple were without the use of much legs, with narrow platform (taking cues from Brian Gordon, Macci). I've been wanting him to interact with his back leg more but it doesn't come easy for him (with his usual slightly wider platform). Putting his feet closer together tends to simplify weight transfer issues and allows him to feel more weight on the back leg. Also, you may not be able to catch this due to the quality of the video, but he tends to take a little bit of ESR into the beginning of the racquet drop. Even Fed, Sampras, Raonic, etc., lay the wrist back a bit to facilitate the racket drop. I'm not sure what to think about this. Let me know if you see anything with his technique that you find problematic or that can lead to injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYux...Wd31Ih9o2WPw8Q

Sorry, the video was private when it was initially downloaded. It's public now.

Here is a case in point from a recent poster with his son's service motion. The video looks to be rather constrained and I would much rather see the original motion with the wider stance because I imagine that the student is more comfortable and feels better with the original than the modified. You see there must be some wiggle room in the width of the stance. Nothing is set in stone here.

teachestennis...I thought it was a great question when I read your post. I was waiting for the opportune moment to respond to it. It will be interesting to see what Brian has to say as well.

[lovati4]

I think you described the main problem very well yourself. There is a big difference between falling forward and going up on a serve. When a player falls forward you can see that in his (her) bad, unbalanced landing. In the clip the boy shifts his weight from his back to his front foot (falling) before going up. This leads to the akward landing.
Good explanation is given by Rick Macci here (min 7:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys56ikfLXFc

[stotty]

I think you described the main problem very well yourself. There is a big difference between falling forward and going up on a serve. When a player falls forward you can see that in his (her) bad, unbalanced landing. In the clip the boy shifts his weight from his back to his front foot (falling) before going up. This leads to the akward landing.
Good explanation is given by Rick Macci here (min 7:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys56ikfLXFc

Nice video. I am big on knee symmetry too. It would interesting to see how far into the court someone like Novak would be compared to McEnroe. Back then it was more about propelling forward than going up.

[stotty]

I recorded a few serves today. He wasn't going big. The first couple were without the use of much legs, with narrow platform (taking cues from Brian Gordon, Macci). I've been wanting him to interact with his back leg more but it doesn't come easy for him (with his usual slightly wider platform). Putting his feet closer together tends to simplify weight transfer issues and allows him to feel more weight on the back leg. Also, you may not be able to catch this due to the quality of the video, but he tends to take a little bit of ESR into the beginning of the racquet drop. Even Fed, Sampras, Raonic, etc., lay the wrist back a bit to facilitate the racket drop. I'm not sure what to think about this. Let me know if you see anything with his technique that you find problematic or that can lead to injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYux...Wd31Ih9o2WPw8Q

Sorry, the video was private when it was initially downloaded. It's public now.

Lovely serve...plenty to work with. The narrow stance doesn't seem to suit his serve somehow. Narrow bases tend to be the preserve of abbreviated swings, like Roddick's and Monfils'.

It would be great to get a side view of the serve, and one in slow motion form the rear so we can see his internal shoulder rotation?

I haven't studied your son's serve much yet but the first thing that stands out is the ball toss. His tossing arm raises the ball straight up with no turning of the shoulder. See how Roger turns his shoulders away from the court as he's tossing the ball. I really like this method and Roger has it about perfect.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

[postpre]

Lovely serve...plenty to work with. The narrow stance doesn't seem to suit his serve somehow. Narrow bases tend to be the preserve of abbreviated swings, like Roddick's and Monfils'.

It would be great to get a side view of the serve, and one in slow motion form the rear so we can see his internal shoulder rotation?

I haven't studied your son's serve much yet but the first thing that stands out is the ball toss. His tossing arm raises the ball straight up with no turning of the shoulder. See how Roger turns his shoulders away from the court as he's tossing the ball. I really like this method and Roger has it about perfect.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

Thanks for your thoughts. I would like to address what you noted about Roger and his shoulder turn when I get more time later today. To clarify, in the video my son employed the narrow platform on the first two serves as a corrective drill; the last three serves were more normal for him. Though his platform is not as wide as Fed, Sampras. I'm currently experimenting with how far to separate his feet.

[postpre]

Lovely serve...plenty to work with. The narrow stance doesn't seem to suit his serve somehow. Narrow bases tend to be the preserve of abbreviated swings, like Roddick's and Monfils'.

It would be great to get a side view of the serve, and one in slow motion form the rear so we can see his internal shoulder rotation?

I haven't studied your son's serve much yet but the first thing that stands out is the ball toss. His tossing arm raises the ball straight up with no turning of the shoulder. See how Roger turns his shoulders away from the court as he's tossing the ball. I really like this method and Roger has it about perfect.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

I studied the clip of Roger. Would we agree that Roger does not actually jump off both feet (or at least there is negligible back leg contribution when it comes to his jump)? He seems to load with his weight on both legs, but his actual jump does not begin until there is virtually no weight on his right leg (you can see him on an extreme tip toe with his right foot before he launches into the air).

[stotty]

I studied the clip of Roger. Would we agree that Roger does not actually jump of both feet (or at least there is very little back leg contribution when it comes to the jump)? He seems to load with his weight on both legs, bit his actual jump does not begin until there is virtually no weight on his right leg (you can see him on an extreme tip toe with his right foot before he launches into the air).

I believe he is driving up strongly with the rear leg. It just leaves the ground earlier because the right side of his body is extending up to contact.

[bottle]

Too bad it's not the son writing in.

[lovati4]

I agree. This video (a beautiful clip) shows very well how Roger pushes with his back leg, going not forward but up.

[stotty]

I agree. This video (a beautiful clip) shows very well how Roger pushes with his back leg, going not forward but up.

It is...beautiful that is. And if you look carefully at both feet as he drives up, he is pushing up first with the rear foot, not the front.

It's amazing that two of the greatest shots of all time belong to one bloke. Possessing one would seem amazing enough, possessing two is outrageous.

[doctorhl]

The foot balance is incredible as his timing for contact (and I assume ball location) to extend and reach upward is perfect. Jumping Analogy- ——“as though he was balancing and timing his jump to reach up and swat a bug with the racket, high against a Basketball backboard, a few feet away inside the baseline”. Judging by the height of his feet at contact, he seems to be reaching and making contact pretty high. Is the analogy helpful or hurtful to a coach for analyzing a player’s upward jump? If analogy is accurate, it could be helpful in determining a feel for stance width and amount of drive by either foot. If the analogy is helpful to the coach( a big if), would one verbalize the analogy to the player or is that too restrictive and confining to the player’s natural style of development? Perhaps as JY recommends, just show the visuals and limit the verbal explanations and analogies. Diagnosing a skill is difficult, but the psychology and communication skills needed for the intervention is much tougher.....where the analyst and coach meet!

[bottle]

The foot balance is incredible as his timing for contact (and I assume ball location) to extend and reach upward is perfect. Jumping Analogy- ——“as though he was balancing and timing his jump to reach up and swat a bug with the racket, high against a Basketball backboard, a few feet away inside the baseline”. Judging by the height of his feet at contact, he seems to be reaching and making contact pretty high. Is the analogy helpful or hurtful to a coach for analyzing a player’s upward jump? If analogy is accurate, it could be helpful in determining a feel for stance width and amount of drive by either foot. If the analogy is helpful to the coach( a big if), would one verbalize the analogy to the player or is that too restrictive and confining to the player’s natural style of development? Perhaps as JY recommends, just show the visuals and limit the verbal explanations and analogies. Diagnosing a skill is difficult, but the psychology and communication skills needed for the intervention is much tougher.....where the analyst and coach meet!

I can't believe that one size fits all. Think Vic Braden was right to evaluate how a player learns through interview and try to proceed from there. Dancers understand that some persons learn better from words than from visual example or from both so why can't tennis players? In the one master dance class I ever witnessed, at the North Carolina School of the Arts, taught by a dude from the New York City Ballet, he the teacher described about ten steps, demonstrating each as he went along. That seemed to cover at least two bases (visual and verbal). The amazing thing was that the students, about 15 of them as I recall, were able not only to recall each step but do it, so the teaching method must have been effective at least for great students.

I'm for active learners. I think it's too easy for a teacher in any field to dumb down his students. Too much of that and they'll burn out when they have to deal with something on their own or in some other way not ever reach their potential.

[postpre]

Glad to be back on the forum. Hope everyone is well. Over the last year my son has made some adjustments to his forehand (with the help of some suggestions on this thread). This short video shows his current form. He is 15, 9th grader in high school.

https://vimeo.com/399286076

[postpre]

Also, he switched back to the platform for his serve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbrvTf7XiJQ&feature=youtu.be