The Serve: Synchronizing the Legs

[BrianGordon]

Sorry for the delay - been traveling out of the country and too busy.

ferli001 - thanks and yes, starting at the hesitation point and focusing on initiating the back swing with legs is exactly the technique I use.

vgrin545 - thanks - the elbow bend early in the follow through is an old pitcher's trick to mitigate the forces from the preceding rapid elbow extension as the shoulder is eternally rotated. Probably why Pete did it.

Thanks doctorhi, appreciate the kind words.

seano - a forward entry would limit internal rotation magnitude as the implicit swing plane restricts the external rotation. Late leg drive generally does not limit the external to internal coupling but can expose the shoulder to excessive loads in the process.

stotty - both the grip and right toss probably would not decrease the external to internal rotation coupling but certainly would decrease the contribution of the internal rotation to forward racquet speed due to the geometrical problems they cause - less than optimal angles between the arm and racquet face center.

[seano]

Brian -

Thank you once again. A limited external shoulder rotation obviously limits the external to internal coupling that is capable but would you say that it is the main cause for the lack of a full 180 degrees of internal shoulder rotation on the serve? Or are there other factors that will limit the ISR, and if so, what would they be? Thanks.

SeanO

[don_budge]

Synchronizing the Legs…Dr. Brian Gordon

Transcribed from the video below:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/synchronizing_the_legs/

So our job in dealing with the complexity of the serve by dealing with the backswing, the next step is the legs. You may have noted that in this discussion I really haven’t made mention of the legs at all. It’s well known in the serve, especially in coaching circles, that the legs should push on the serve. The common explanation of that is that the legs create power on the serve, which is true but only in a very indirect way.

The interesting thing on the serve is that the timing of the legs is really such that it doesn’t contribute directly to the racquet speed. Neither does the torso rotation. What they do is they indirectly contribute to the ability to generate the arm rotations of the upward swing. Those are what put the speed on the racquet. But they are absolutely critical the legs and torso rotation in order to put the arm in a position for those upward swing rotations sequences to occur.

When we talk about the roll of the legs we go back to the hesitation point, so again I would have Kayla stop here with the racquet here. At this point her legs should be fully bent. She’s going to set up in a full leg bend and she is going to have the torso tilted back a little back like this. Notice how relative to my opening statement she has very little, if any, twist rotation in the set up position. Most servers are going to have perpendicular hips to the baseline and the shoulders may be rotated, twist rotated about twenty degrees past that. But for the most part the whole thing is set up to produce a forward rotation and not a twisting rotation.

The most important concept in junior development, without question, is the ability for this one to synchronize what happens in the upper body with what is happening with the legs. So is this is done properly what she would be doing is pushing up with her legs at the exact time the racquet is going down the back. So if you think of that, it’s hard to see how the legs really contribute to the speed of the racquet. The legs are pushing up and the racquet is going down the back. That doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. However, it is incredibly important and it does impact the arm’s ability to produce this rotational sequence.

Again to be very, very clear, whether she comes into this continuously or whether she stops her racquet in a hesitation point, the leg drive should commence exactly as the racquet breaks into the backswing and conclude exactly as the racquet exits the backswing. That would indicate perfect timing. It’s very, very important that timing is correct because you may have noticed that in Kayla when I take her into this position of external rotation I’m basically having to crank her shoulder right out of her body.

That’s because you cannot really do that in a static situation. The only way that this can be done in a real way is if her shoulder is incredibly relaxed. The only way she can relax her shoulder is if this external rotation is being caused by something other than a muscular activity doing this. The action that will do it is if she pushes with her legs up a force will be applied to her arm here and because of the orientation that force to the racquet it will make the racquet essentially go down her back as a function of inertia.

What that means is this can be totally relaxed and there is very minimal load on the shoulder. Studies have shown that to safely do this external rotation where she enters the backswing, see how I have to crank her arm to get into this position but if she were actively serving and pushing with her legs it would easily sweep to the outside. That’s because the force from the legs accelerating the body upward vertically is what is forcing the racquet down the back.

Now this timing is the number one problem for juniors in developing their serve. Particularly for kids, this is why I am a huge advocate that when you come out of this windup, whatever her windup is, whether it is a pendulum windup, whether it is an abbreviated windup makes no difference, if she comes out of this windup and goes into a continuous motion, then kids, all players will basically be too far through the backswing with the arm and the racquet at the time the legs are pushing.

Thereby, they might as well not even be pushing with the legs to be honest with you. This is why I insist and the very first thing I build into these guys is this timing between the leg drive and the racquet drop. That is what makes the external to internal rotation coupler, remember the forty-five percent of racquet speed at impact that comes from the internal to external stretch shortening cycle…all of that goes away if that timing is not correct. This is a critical issue in junior development.

[seano]

Don Budge -

Thank you for the transcript of Brian's Video, very helpful. I have a "Word" document with a summary and responses of all his videos, but I don't print the transcript. This is a nice addition.

Sean O

[don_budge]

Don Budge -

Thank you for the transcript of Brian's Video, very helpful. I have a "Word" document with a summary and responses of all his videos, but I don't print the transcript. This is a nice addition.

Sean O

That's great seano...the transcript further enhances an already excellent presentation. Like you, I have thoroughly enjoyed this series on the serve. Typing the transcript forced me to listen to the video over and over. I really got Brian's points hammered into my head. Or maybe I should say drilled.

[nickw]

I can only join in the praise for another excellent article from Brian, and the most important in the series to date. Also to echo Kyle’s comment about how lucky this community is to have access to such quality.

[bottle]

All the Nice Manners are Good Balance for the Streams of Obscenity that Besmirched this Forum a Year or Two ago, but...

Guys, could you please lighten up a bit on all your hagiography (https://www.google.com/search?q=hagi...ome&ie=UTF-8)?

Brian deserves all the praise he gets except when it all adds up to too much as right now. I just would feel more comfortable if Brian's ideas got discussed more rather than how brilliant he is. Yes, he is brilliant and so are lots of other people, especially when they don't imitate themselves.

It all reminds me of when I was teaching English at the University of Rhode Island. Most of my classes were a delight but I had one where I suddenly realized the way that everything I had to say was being dismissed. I had become "a priest of literature." The students were treating me with respect but essentially were thinking, "Mr. Escher really likes this novel (or poem). He's really enthusiastic about it and quite passionate."

But they weren't reading the poem or novel with any kind of attention or understanding of their own. That's what I feel about all the hype of Brian Gordon. His ideas are so very good, and that's what needs our thought and trials. And then report back if you want to. Meaningful exchange could happen.

That's all I'm saying. Less hero-worship and more concentration on STUFF.

[nickw]

I can only speak for myself, but my note of praise was not so much about hero-worship, but more to help highlight that this is a really important article. The reality is that in 10 years time, most coaches still won’t understand the importance of the timing of the leg drive on serve, many still won’t have hi speed video in their toolkit. Maybe the amount of plaudits in this thread will encourage a few more than normal to take the extra time to properly understand this info, and then implement into their teaching or playing.

Bottle, I do get your point, and I’m not just saying that to be well mannered. I hesitated before hitting ‘post’, I didn’t feel comfortable just giving praise without adding to the discussion. In the end I felt it was justified for the reasons noted.

[BrianGordon]

Hi Folks - again thanks for all the kind sentiments. Nickw I think the spirit of your post was self-evident and I appreciate you pointing out the importance of the many aspects of the leg drive on the serve.

Sean - yes, the extent of external rotation is the factor that determines the rotational availability of internal rotation. The muscular conditions of the external rotation are a separate but related issue that define the coupling towards the goal of attaining SSC enhancement. The degree to which the internal rotation achieves it's goal of moving the racquet head depends on the segments configuration near impact. Very challenging question as usual

Don_budge - thanks again for putting the video into writing - I appreciate the time you spend to do so and think it adds a lot of clarity to what I was trying to convey.

Bottle - I like nickw get your point. I think the kind words are more about the content and effort than the author and to be honest I appreciate that. The cyber camaraderie along with my long friendship with John and my admiration for his unrelenting diligence and effort in understanding this game is why I have spent the time to provide my insights on his site(s) for nearly 20 years now. Since I started this "applied" journey I've encountered far more detractors, haters and hypocritical plagiarizers than supporters so on some level it is nice to be somewhere where people are more open minded and thoughtful. But yes... please stick to the stuff.

[bottle]

Thanks, Brian, for addressing the subject I brought up. I wonder if people engaging in hagiography should be called "hags." Here's the point. "The stuff" is really great. No distraction from it, anybody, pretty please.

[bottle]

I can only speak for myself, but my note of praise was not so much about hero-worship, but more to help highlight that this is a really important article. The reality is that in 10 years time, most coaches still won’t understand the importance of the timing of the leg drive on serve, many still won’t have hi speed video in their toolkit. Maybe the amount of plaudits in this thread will encourage a few more than normal to take the extra time to properly understand this info, and then implement into their teaching or playing.

Bottle, I do get your point, and I’m not just saying that to be well mannered. I hesitated before hitting ‘post’, I didn’t feel comfortable just giving praise without adding to the discussion. In the end I felt it was justified for the reasons noted.

Here's some hagiography of my own: You're really good, always.

[don_budge]

Don_budge - thanks again for putting the video into writing - I appreciate the time you spend to do so and think it adds a lot of clarity to what I was trying to convey.

You are welcome Brian. It really enhances the video to see it in writing also and it was my pleasure to do so...Sir. I don't mind saying so either.

[bottle]

You are welcome Brian. It really enhances the video to see it in writing also and it was my pleasure to do so...Sir. I don't mind saying so either.

It's very good. Helps one to quote from Brian's lesson too, whatever it is. I know I did so recently before I made my comment about hags.

[nickw]

Thanks for your comments don_budge, bottle, and brian. I think we’re all on the same wavelength, in the sense of believing this place always provides high quality chat and debate with like-minded people who want to understand, to teach, and to keep learning.

[stroke]

Hi Folks - again thanks for all the kind sentiments. Nickw I think the spirit of your post was self-evident and I appreciate you pointing out the importance of the many aspects of the leg drive on the serve.

Sean - yes, the extent of external rotation is the factor that determines the rotational availability of internal rotation. The muscular conditions of the external rotation are a separate but related issue that define the coupling towards the goal of attaining SSC enhancement. The degree to which the internal rotation achieves it's goal of moving the racquet head depends on the segments configuration near impact. Very challenging question as usual

Don_budge - thanks again for putting the video into writing - I appreciate the time you spend to do so and think it adds a lot of clarity to what I was trying to convey.

Bottle - I like nickw get your point. I think the kind words are more about the content and effort than the author and to be honest I appreciate that. The cyber camaraderie along with my long friendship with John and my admiration for his unrelenting diligence and effort in understanding this game is why I have spent the time to provide my insights on his site(s) for nearly 20 years now. Since I started this "applied" journey I've encountered far more detractors, haters and hypocritical plagiarizers than supporters so on some level it is nice to be somewhere where people are more open minded and thoughtful. But yes... please stick to the stuff.

Brian's applied journey is stand alone to me, the end all be all of quantitatively describing what the best players in the world are doing out there. I can assure you that you have for the most part found an audience here that gets it.