The Women's Modern Forehand

[EricMatuszewski]

Women's Modern Forehand

Can the women hit like the men?

Lindsay Davenport was trained to hit the famed Robert Lansdorp classical style forehand known for it's speed thru the air and low net clearance.
Justine Henin and Roger Federer both finished at the top of the rankings this year with what are largely considered the best forehands on the women's and men's sides of the game respectively.

Here are the animations of 3 gorgeous forehands hit from similar positions with similar ball heights. You can study them frame by frame in the Quick Time movies in the next window down.

What makes the forehands of these two top women different and/or the same compared to each other and to Roger Federer?

Are there differences in technique that are influenced by gender? Do physical size/muscle mass influence these players abilities to hit these shots?

This month we'd love to hear some of our women subscribers speak up!



Lindsay




Justine




Roger

[EricMatuszewski]

Quick Time Movies


Lindsay





Justine



Roger

[lukman41985]

Merry Christmas and thank you, Eric!

In general, I think women can hit the ball with almost as much pure velocity as the men. However, I think almost all of the rallies on the WTA Tour occur at lower ball speeds because the women tend to hit flatter--therefore the margin of error is smaller. I think there are a few reasons for why women generally hit flatter:
1.) they generally lack the strength needed to produce the kind of racquet head speeds that men do;
2.) women are generally slower than men and as such, flatter balls, which I think fly through the air are faster, are more effective;
3.) women lack the strength to hold and effectively hit with more extreme grips and the subsequent correlated technique characteristics (more torso rotation, hand and arm rotation, use of the open stance, etc.); and
4.) in a game played by women, power seems to be even more sought after than by men. I always hear about how amazing it is that a woman built as slight as Henin hits the ball so hard (but never about how she generally hits with more spin, aside from perhaps this coming discussion), and how Sharapova and the Williams sisters do so as well. It's as if women aren't expected to hit the ball hard, so when they do, well wow, that much be the reason why they're good! Somehow, we tend to be more sophisticated with our thinking when watching the men play (i.e., Roddick needs to serve fewer mph's and hit more corners).

I know Heath Waters over at his website has discussed this topic and talks about differences in technique and how the women lag behind the men. I agree on both counts. However, his views about acceptable technique are much more rigid. He has a video somewhere on his site comparing the forehands of Nadal and Federer to that of Sharapova. A couple of the points he makes are that Maria lets the racquet go "off plane" by letting it go behind her back (whatever that means...) and "pre-cocks" her wrist thereby limiting her ball/spin speed by interfering with the stretch-shortening cycle (hopefully people have seen the video or heard about it, otherwise this will sound like a random rant) and how this somehow makes her forehand less effective. That's a pretty outrageous claim, I think. I think she has a pretty damn good forehand that overpowered Henin at Flushing Meadows and that she hits it the way she does for reasons beyond any of us or Heath. If anything, Maria could use a little more extension through the ball (at least on some shots), but of course this went unmentioned. So even good instructors confuse cause and effect.

What I appreciate about this site's approach is that John and contributors like Nick Saviano and Dick Gould assert that there are key fundamentals that a player must have and that his/her technique can also include some idiosyncrasies that would otherwise not compromise the more essential components. Heath tends to talk about commonalities, but to me, he's becoming more and more orthodox when it comes to his views on technique.

Quoting Heath:
"it is very enlightening to see how nadal and federer use their wrist compared to many women however hennin-hardenne and some other females properly use their wrist as well as shown in these videos..." from http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/...d&threadid=366

"there is no reference points that are different to teach women or men. in my opinion there is only one way...the right way. i teach women the same as i teach men. most females however lack heavily across the board technically. i think if we coaches across the board can stick to our guns and not give in to letting our female players get away with poor mechanics i think we will make head way. i truly only teach my female players to play like the top male players and it has been very successful for me over the years." from

http://www.virtualtennisacademy.com/forums/index.php?action=showthread&threadid=216

Check out these two clips of "off plane" forehands from a couple of players that have miraculously dealt with apparently "poor mechanics":

Pay attention to the frame 6 frames before contact.

Pay attention to the frame 7 frames before contact.

By the way, I'm only ranting because this discussion seems to be a derivative of something prominent at virtualtennisacademy.com. However I know that Eric, and that everyone else that will contribute, has an open mind and because of that, this will be a great discussion!

[andrew_majett]

I think what makes Lindsey's forehand most different from Justine's is the position of her wrist. Lindsey's wrist is laid back or pre stretched during the prep of the swing. Justine's wrist is in a more neutral position. Lindsey's wrist position influences the size of her backswing by making it larger than it has to be. When I say, "larger than it has to be." That is, to most effectively strike a tennis ball.
What people miss in many of these debates is that when you are designing a players game you look at their relative strengths and weaknesses. Grips and swing paths are not just picked up at the local grocery store! You design the weaponry for the individual. Lindsey and Justine are a great example of my opinion. Physically they are very different. Think about it. If you are developing Lindsey what are your raw materials? Size and strength. You insert grips and swing paths to maximize those things. She isn't the most fit or the fastest. Never has been. Lindsey's game designers/coaches knew this! Lindsey punishes the ball. She was never meant to be a scrambler. She would hit through opponents! When she was on her game, she was dominating enough to completely dictate the tempo of most points. She was a slugger. Moving forward, making the court smaller. The topspin loops from the other women drop right into her wheel house. Lights out! So her wrist being laid back sooner than Justine's just did not translate to a detriment. Now, I believe that with Justine you have the same logic at work. You have this small, scrappy player who will run all day long...if she has to. As a coach. you can't send her out into battle to run all day. So you reinforce that tiny scrambler with some serious guns off both sides. You teach her how to time that one handed backhand. So she is moving forward. Going to get the ball. Again, dictating play. Justine's forehand was retooled a few years ago. She keeps the wrist neutral longer than most female players. More like Roger's, and many - not all of the male players. Justine's ability to crack the forehand more often is, I think, due to this difference. Justine's forehand technique allows her to have variety and safety. Which is extra important if you are small or tall and slow. It would be very unlikely that she would be as successful trying to play like Lindsey. Justine is so effective because she is a scrambler with heat!
All things being equal, I believe Justine's forehand is a better forehand compared with Lindsey's. She has more variety and safety. Roger has changed everything with his mastery of that stroke. His is the gold standard. What will his mastery of the stroke/game spawn in terms of copy cats in the coming years? I can't wait!

[EricMatuszewski]

My hit with a WTA pro...

Merry Christmas Everyone!

We've gotten off to a quick start on this one and I just wanted to again encourage the girls out there to speak up! We really want your expert opinion (even if you don't consider yourself experts) on this hot topic.

Here's a little background on the selection of this months topic...

I've made a conscious decision to focus more on my girl students as of late particularly a large group of 6-8 year old's. I've done individual work with them, but now were stepping it up and I'm making them more of a priority because they're ready.

These little girls are good! They impress the @#$% out of me everytime I watch their footage (I shoot alot of video of them over the course of each players development). So I'm really excited about their future.

Also, I got the honor of working out with WTA player Bethany Mattek (126 ranking last I checked) lately. Merry Christmas Bethany!

Bethany's got very good forehand technique, her change of direction down the line is particularly good. It was very enlightening to hit with her, and experience the qualities of that level of a forehand on the WTA.

Our hit really got me thinking about what womens tennis is really like, watching it, and actually hitting with a WTA player are two different levels of understanding.

With the girls taking center stage now in my little world, I thought it was time to encourage them to come out on the web as well.

So girls, this forum topic is your chance.

[lukman41985]

Eric,
Sounds like a great and enlightening experience. Good luck with your junior girls.

Andrew,
Great points.

Jeff,
I see we are of the same mind with regard to Heath's teaching--some of it is really, really good, but overall, his dogmatic view of technique isn't promising for anyone trying to learn from him. By the way, great pictures of Vaidisova (or is that Kirilenko?), Davenport, and Zvonareva!

[johnyandell]

One point here on the straight arm wrist back thing with Fed and Nadal--they both hit most forehands with the wrist back and this continues well after contact. I'm quite confident on this point because I have the only high speed footage of them that could actually serve as a data base for determining it.

Check the articles in Advanced Tennis on both their forehands.

So PLEASE let's not say they are somehow categorically different and wrist releasing thru every hit hit--again that is situational for all players, them included and related to the swing shape, court position, shot choice, ball height, spin, trajectory. You can find almost every player in virtually every state of wrist position eventually if you look thru enough clips. What is the preponderance in most situations???

Second Fed hits up to a third of his forehands in full double bend, a third straight, and a third in between. Nadal also uses the double bend at times

It's complex and in our search for more understanding let's not roll over the evidence.

[jeffreycounts]

One point here on the straight arm wrist back thing with Fed and Nadal--they both hit most forehands with the wrist back and this continues well after contact. I'm quite confident on this point because I have the only high speed footage of them that could actually serve as a data base for determining it.

Check the articles in Advanced Tennis on both their forehands.

So PLEASE let's not say they are somehow categorically different and wrist releasing thru every hit hit--again that is situational for all players, them included and related to the swing shape, court position, shot choice, ball height, spin, trajectory. You can find almost every player in virtually every state of wrist position eventually if you look thru enough clips. What is the preponderance in most situations???

Second Fed hits up to a third of his forehands in full double bend, a third straight, and a third in between. Nadal also uses the double bend at times

It's complex and in our search for more understanding let's not roll over the evidence.

Absolutely. I actually have been sucked into the Heath Waters wrist release on every ball theory based on the one video he shows comparing Nadal and Federer from a rear view. I just see in my head these two videos and forget about all the rest! And when I think of wrist release (as Bungalow Bill coined it) I think of some wrist relaxation going into contact, but the wrist stays back through contact.

And even in the double bends you see the wrist at every wrist position if you study enough video, as John points out. I'll wipe out my earlier theory about the straight arm offering more wrist movement possibility into contact. It isn't accurate.

[johnyandell]

I mean I think it's interesting to think if it courages a quicker release somehow on some balls--but that will take looking at a lot more balls. I think this is the one danger with video. A lot of people are interested in "proving" their theories with one or two examples, rather than looking for the complexities and trying to assess it across many examples.

[lukman41985]

Perhaps a different camera angle will reveal more?

Safin, Federer, and Henin-Hardenne from the rear camera angle. They look VERY similar to me:

[johnyandell]

Going back to the top, those clips are high speed with more frames.

Here's a hint. What is the role of the left arm in all three?

[EricMatuszewski]

Happy New Year!

lukman,

Those are some amazingly well matched up clips! I agree that they look remarkably similar in the clips you chose.

[lukman41985]

Eric,
Happy new year to you too! Thanks and yes, they really do. I really love studying the rear view, especially the real court level view--somehow I learn and absorb the most from that perspective. Perhaps it's similar to how during drills, some pros have their students shadow whoever is hitting?

[wicky10s]

Justine and Lindsay

Hi John and all,
This forum is great!
I really like both Lindsay and Justine but I think that there are very big differences in their forehands. The most obvious one is not in the wrist and arm but in their feet/body. Justine has always hit the ball more like a guy. She coils her body, pushes off the ground and uncoils with a lot of energy. Lindsay on the other hand doesn't coil or uncoil much at all. She pushes off the ground with her back foot but she lands right back on that foot. If you look at Justine and some of the other woman (and almost every male tennis player) they rotate completely around onto the other foot. This is how Justine generates extra power and spin. Lindsay gets some extra spin from her arm brushing up on the ball and "wrapping" as you say almost around her neck! Mostly she drives the ball pretty hard and flat.
Lindsay is more of a classic player in the modern game.She has great leverage due to her height and inherent strength. She can look a little stiff due to a relatively shallow knee bend but in person she exemplifies an athlete who has refined and distilled her technique and timing down to near perfect form. I must admit I like Justine's technique better especially her backhand!
Vhibbard

[stroke]

I pretty much agree with vhibbard's take on Justine and Lindsay's FH. It looks to me like Justine gets her shoulder much more into or behind her FH than Lindsay, which Jeff Counts pointed out is very important in his article "The Windshield Wiper Forehand". Also, as to John's earlier point about the role of the left hand in their FH's, Lindsay pulls or stretches her left arm around to the left side of her body before she begins her swing(it appears to me), and with Justine and her pro men's type FH, her left arm works with her body to turn into the ball with her torso and shoulder behind the ball, creating a heavier(with spin) and more consistent shot in my opinion.