Interactive Forum November 2018: Stefano Tsitsispas Forehand

[johnyandell]

Stefano Tsitsispas Forehand

Wow. This guy is 20 and the spring in his legs show it. Quite a dynamic forehand. Quite a contrast to Naomi Osaka's forehand we looked at last month. (Click Here.) Long legs and long arms, but a Federer-like compact outside backswing and straight arm. And extension that rivals Del Potro. What else am I missing and what do you guys think?

[seano]

A beautiful ATP forehand with wonderful extension. A few observations:
1) Traditional ATP forehand with elbow going back level in backswing, not the modern which elevates the elbow in the backswing.
2) Keeps the racquet face more on edge in the "flip" as opposed to Federer who has the strings facing the ground. Looks more like Del Potro's.
3) Brings the racquet head more behind his body in the "flip" than Federer, who keeps the racquet head more on the hitting side of the body.

[stotty]

A beautiful ATP forehand with wonderful extension. A few observations:
1) Traditional ATP forehand with elbow going back level in backswing, not the modern which elevates the elbow in the backswing.
2) Keeps the racquet face more on edge in the "flip" as opposed to Federer who has the strings facing the ground. Looks more like Del Potro's.
3) Brings the racquet head more behind his body in the "flip" than Federer, who keeps the racquet head more on the hitting side of the body.

My understanding is the flip is not as maximised if the racket is more on edge than if the strings were facing the ground, correct? I always thought one of the critical elements of flipping was to have the strings pretty much facing down until close to the last moment?

Old school forehands like Connors' and McEnroe's, where the racket is taken back completely edge and then forward on edge, are actually devoid of flip?

[seano]

Stotty -
I wonder what Tsitsispas's spin levels are with the "flip" on the edge. I know Del Potro hits a flatter ball with his racquet on edge. Wonder if it produces less vertical racquet head speed, thus less spin. Does it have any effect on the centripetal force bringing the racquet to contact?

[stotty]

Stotty -
I wonder what Tsitsispas's spin levels are with the "flip" on the edge. I know Del Potro hits a flatter ball with his racquet on edge. Wonder if it produces less vertical racquet head speed, thus less spin. Does it have any effect on the centripetal force bringing the racquet to contact?

Tough questions to answer unless a person truly understands the complexity of biomechanics. I suspect Tsitsispas and Del Potro have less access to topspin than Roger has, but am not qualified to answer that with any certainty. Tsitsispas does hit fairly flat, and hard and Del Potro hit's with jaw-dropping power at times. Del Potro is stronger than Roger and Tsitsispas put together, however, which goes some way to explaining the power he gets.

[klacr]

Great analysis to begin the thread by seano.

This is a great video. I have always noticed his forehand has the on-edge backswing. Obviously he does just fine hitting it at a world class level. I have tried this form out of curiosity and although I can hit it, I really have to concentrate on every inch of the backswing and the ball needs to be in a very specific contact zone. Not easy to do consistently.

I love the Tsitsipas extension and the relaxed wrap to finish the stroke.
Not to get away from the main subject of his forehand but does anyone think his split step is higher than normal?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[abc0045]

orientation of handle of the racquet or the racquet face doesn't matter in the flip; its the shoulder forearm/elbow positioning which determines quality of the stroke and that is compact and excellent. Anyways, after flip (during forward pull) orientation of racquet face is almost identical to that of Federer's or Delpo's

[johnyandell]

Guys the amount of closure on the racket face is often a function of contact height.

Compare Roger here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nt1_500fps.mp4

To Here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Short&stroke=RFFHShortNeutralStanceSide7_250fps.mp4

[stroke]

Tough questions to answer unless a person truly understands the complexity of biomechanics. I suspect Tsitsispas and Del Potro have less access to topspin than Roger has, but am not qualified to answer that with any certainty. Tsitsispas does hit fairly flat, and hard and Del Potro hit's with jaw-dropping power at times. Del Potro is stronger than Roger and Tsitsispas put together, however, which goes some way to explaining the power he gets.

I am always interested in the speed/spin elements of these world class forehands also. It is hard to get access to those quantitative measurements. Occasionally, a network such as the TennisChannel of TennisTV will supply the rpm's on the forehands, the mph's info is way more common. I still remember last year at the conclusion of a Sock Dimitrov match, the network did supply such info on their forehands at the end of match, and I was very surprised. Of course, I suspected the Sock fh and more rpm's than Dimitrov's, but final numbers were surprising to me. The average Sock fh had 1000 more rpm's and 10 mph's more over the average Dimitrov fh. I suspect that Tsitsipas' numbers are very close to Dimitrov as their form looks very similar.

[abc0045]

During the take-back the racquet face is more open for Tsitsispas than Roger even on low-mid range balls, but elbow remains at level instead of lifting up like Kyrgios, allows for quicker acceleration into the pull essentially giving a similar result. Delpo has bigger lever (with straight arm) as he's much taller allowing for more power

[stotty]

Guys the amount of closure on the racket face is often a function of contact height.

Compare Roger here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nt1_500fps.mp4

To Here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Short&stroke=RFFHShortNeutralStanceSide7_250fps.mp4

I think we get the situational aspect of how much that racket closes, it's just that Tsitsispas seems way more closed on the mid to lower height balls than Roger. Now how does that affect matters in terms of the amount of flipping that's going on and access to spin?

[johnyandell]

Good questions. But I think it's the opposite on the few Tisitsipas forehands we have. Roger in general is more closed if you look at a lot of examples in the stroke archives. It's just as you say more situational, relatively speaking. I will try to count some Stefano spins later. But one thing I doubt is that any of these guys are thinking flip more or less--or that they even know what a flip is or that the face closes down more or less.

[bottle]

A beautiful ATP forehand with wonderful extension. A few observations:
1) Traditional ATP forehand with elbow going back level in backswing, not the modern which elevates the elbow in the backswing.
2) Keeps the racquet face more on edge in the "flip" as opposed to Federer who has the strings facing the ground. Looks more like Del Potro's.
3) Brings the racquet head more behind his body in the "flip" than Federer, who keeps the racquet head more on the hitting side of the body.

Tomaz Mencinger teaches more edge on as described here simply because he believes it easier for somebody who doesn't hit tennis balls all day than the more virtuoso full closing of Federer.

But I especially like the JY idea that top players are likely not even to know what a flip is.

My amusement however often has to be separated from what I wish to try on a tennis court.

Stillness of elbow throughout the backswing if backswing as here is going to start with racket going up will be less comfortable for me than maintaining that stillness (stationary but twisting) only through the part where racket tip goes up. Elbow then can fall with everything else. The racket after flip will end up slightly more closed.

Will have to try that. On the other hand, at a certain age, amusement no doubt should predominate. I find it in the three videos of Don Budge forehands contained in the stroke archive. In two of them racket rises first to the outside, but in one of them racket rises second as it draws to the inside as in his famous backhand. "Completely different!"

(I think I can steal-- hopefully-- a verbal pattern from the odious president if I want.) Wow, a sentence fragment. Completely different backswing!

[jschaff]

I like the comparisons between Federer and Delpo on ST's forehand. But at the contact area, which is really the only important as far as results go, he is a duplicate of Delpo with the huge extension and reach, and the body rotation to speed the rackethead thru the contact zone down the ball path.

There appears to be tension instead of relaxation and release of the racket head through the zone. And THAT is what will cause wrist injuries, similar to what has happened to Delpo so often. Tsitsispas will get away with it for a long time since he is so young, but it will catch up with him in time. I predict a wrist injury in him within five years. You can see that Delpo has changed up his backhand to go for more slices to avoid this injury on the two hander. And he is releasing his forehand WAY better at this stage to keep from getting injured. Federer has never had a ground stroke injury just because of this relaxation and release of the racket on contact off of both sides. AND he just doesn't apply that much force on the stroke. Quickness is different than force. Both result in ball speed. But force = mass x acceleration while kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared. So quickness = ballspeed and less effort.

[bman]

Isn't closure at the bottom of the flip simply a function of grip?