Video use in French elite structure

[mdhubert]

I heard an interesting interview this morning of Patrice Agelauer, the former coach of Yannick Noah and trainer in French Davis Cup team. He's currently working for a training structure called "team Lagardère" that helps elite French players such as Gasquet, Monfils, Mathieu or Mahut to train physically, tactically and technically between tournaments. It's kind of complementary or even a competitor of the French Federation. He says that they are currently implementing a tennis court with two kinds of video cameras: high speed cameras in order to study the movement and positioning of the players (he was taking the exemple of the shoulders placement during the movement to the ball), and infrared cameras in order to study the muscle groups in action during each movement, in order to optimize their use. It will be interesting to see the improvement of this group of players with the use of these tehnologies. They seem quite advanced, and totally in line with your approach. Are these tools used in such an organised way in academies in the US ?
Here is a link I found:

http://www.teamlagardere.com/va/

[johnyandell]

From what little I can tell it's video analysis, strength training, and a lot of attention to putting everything together for the individual players. They have been doing all that at Bollietieri's for years. But I couldn't find anything about the actual video technologies.

[mdhubert]

They have been doing all that at Bollietieri's for years. But I couldn't find anything about the actual video technologies.

Including infrared cameras ? Have you used those as well ? Is it useful ?

[johnyandell]

Like I said I didn't see that--have you got the link?

[jeffreycounts]

Infrared cameras? This reminds me of Ivan Drago in Rocky IV.

[BrianGordon]

infrared

Including infrared cameras ? Have you used those as well ? Is it useful ?

John, I apologize for stepping into the Yandell zone, and I'll steer clear in the future, but forgive me in one input ...

The group in France is measuring 3-D body coordinates. Infrared is one of about 4 technologies available to do this. Systems that use infrared (Vicon, Motion Analysis Corp.) bounce the infrared output off reflective markers allowing subsequent 3-D reconstruction of body points. The 3-D coordinates can then be used for Biomechanical analysis - no "camera" image is produced.

In short this group is attempting to apply the national federation (USA Olympic Training Center) model in the private sector - specifically integration of coaching, training, and applied Sport Science.

No US academies or programs (that I'm aware of) currently have the capability (or even close) to implement this model. The question in my mind is if the French group has the expertise to pull it off. Either way, the approach is very advanced and represents the future of Tennis player development - in the same way it has dominated olympic and professional athlete preparation in oher sports - stay tuned.

[johnyandell]

Right! Thanks for stepping in and if it's true that's very interesting! Have you had any contact with those guys??

[julian]

Video use in French elite structure

Did anybody hear anything new related to the discussion
of Video use in French elite structure?
The last post is 2005
juliantennis@comcast.net

[BrianGordon]

Did anybody hear anything new related to the discussion
of Video use in French elite structure?
The last post is 2005
juliantennis@comcast.net

It is dated 2005 but the discussion occured today 2006.

John -

No contact. Unfortunate the right group of visionaries in the US can't get together because then any contact with the French group would be a fading image in the rear view mirror. I suspect it will take a private sector (in the loose sense) effort as the major US Tennis bureaucracies don't seem to have the stomach for "thinking out of the box" to develop players.

[mdhubert]

No contact. Unfortunate the right group of visionaries in the US can't get together because then any contact with the French group would be a fading image in the rear view mirror. I suspect it will take a private sector (in the loose sense) effort as the major US Tennis bureaucracies don't seem to have the stomach for "thinking out of the box" to develop players.

It's a bit similar towards the French Tennis Federation, Lagardère is attracting their best trainers and biomechanists because they are able to invest in new technologies. It is a healthy competition because now the Federation tries to close the gap but as you say, a private group has better chances to succeed, with less political discussions. today they work together though, for example Gasquet's coach is Deblicker (Federation) but he's sponsored and member of Lagardère team. How long will it last ? However I'm happy to see that for once everything is put together to get great results (Roland Garros ?) and not just complain about this or that. It is a very American way to proceed !

[BrianGordon]

It is a very American way to proceed !

One would think!!

[lukman41985]

Spain, Argentina, and Russia seems to be producing the highest volume of top players right now--do they operature under a federation model? Do their development agencies utilize high-speed cameras, infrared-cameras, etc.?

Perhaps the USTA can embrace the APAS technology utilized by Vic Braden? APAS seems to create the same end product as the infrared technology utilized by this private French group. Brian, do you know anything about APAS? Is it simlar to the technology you use? Would it be useful in the development of American tennis players?

This is a very interesting and crucial discussion and I for one would like to see articles about this in the High Performance section of tennisplayer.

[BrianGordon]

Lukeman-

I agree it is an interesting AND crucial topic. I also would like to see an article. Perhaps John could persuade current contributors like Roetert or others like Riewald of the USTA High Performance to speak about these issues in a piece.

It is a complicated topic that ultimately relates more to philosophy than to technology.

The technology piece is pretty straight forward. Many technologies provide superior analytic capabilities to those currently being utilized. APAS is one of these. It is a video based system that produces 3-D information. However, even in its class, it is not the one I would choose.

The more important technical component is expertise. Generating biomechanical or other scientific information is one thing, productive interpretation and transmutation is another. I am aware of very few people in the world who have done the requisite peer reviewed, and applied research, along with developing information communication systems, to project the IMPORTANT data implications onto players in a training system through interaction with coaches.

Yet these technological capabilities are attainable, which leaves philosophy as the driving force in player development. The philosophy in Tennis, from the power brokers on down to the teaching professionals, has remained essentially unchanged for decades it seems to me.

Get a group of players together in closed environment, perhaps throw in some physical conditioning with varying degrees of sophistication, and let them beat each other into submission until the superior athletes rise to the top of the pack through osmosis (the competition model). My understanding is this is how the other organizations you mention work – they have just become a little better at this model than others.

Another philosophy is to combine this competition based strategy with a quantifiable component to development through integration of scientific disciplines. The French appear to be doing this, and the LTA has recently redefined their philosophy in this direction. Several national federations in other sports have been implementing it for years.

This means explicitly using the appropriate technological tools directly in player development as opposed to implicitly through teaching coaches a few global concepts that are useless in isolation. And the philosophy must, in my opinion, be implemented to a much larger population at earlier stages of development.

The result would be that a much larger percentage of developing players would reach their genetic capabilities (which is a shockingly low number in my experience), placing a far larger number at the brink of excellence earlier and before their physiological window closes. These numbers, all at a higher level, then strengthen the competition based model, which clearly has an important role.

Finally, those that enter the rarified air of true excellence, will have the information and infrastructure to continue improvement. These are controversial opinions (I’m sure) and encapsulate my approach. It is all I have to say on this topic (my holiday vacation ends today) but I’m very interested to hear how the experts out there define their philosophy.

[lukman41985]

Here is an example of the types of papers Braden and Ariel produce: http://www.arielnet.com/start/apas/s.../toptennis.pdf

[lukman41985]

By the way, Mauresmo's physical trainer, Xavier Moreau, is affiliated with Team Lagardere. Mauresmo gave her thoughts of him on her official website:

Xavier took over from Jean-Claude Perrin, with whom I had been working for years. Working with Perrin was quite an experience! He’s a great guy who acted like a sergeant but still understood feminine sensitivity and together we really did some excellent work. With Xavier, I learned to push my physical limits and to know my body. I learned to build a “tank”, as Xavier would say, so that I can play from match to match without tiring out. He made me understand details that make a difference, like active recovery after a match. That was something I used to cut short. With Xav’, everything is very precise. He worked a lot with Loïc [her coach] on what I needed to improve in my game. Xavier doesn’t travel with me on the road, but he is always in contact with Loïc or Michel [her physiotherapist].

http://www.ameliemauresmo.fr/en/htm/monstaff.php