The Serve: The Rotations in the Upward Swing

[gzhpcu]

I wonder what Roger Fereder would make of our conversation....

[bottle]

I hope he wouldn't disparage it. But can he play tennis like us? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYmiffPMUho)

[ferli001]

I just want to thank Dr. Gordon for this fantastic explanation and demo with his student. I am an average player and have been working on teaching myself a higher level serve. This video with its repeated demonstrations of the position of the hitting arm and elbow --is so clear. The "bend at the elbow" has been my quest, the ever-mysterious holy grail -- and for once, without using that specific terminology, I can understand what to do. Thank you and I can't wait to hear more about the coordination. I have to say that with only a few days of shadow swings at home (and with a clear mental picture of what I want --now) I served with such an increased power today just by trying to imitate the video. Best wishes, from a nerdy amateur.

[BrianGordon]

gzhpcu - external rotation yes, palm down no (implies too much supination).

stotty - workshops sound interesting and informative.

ferli001 - glad to hear the explanation helped your serve - thanks for the shout out.

[gzhpcu]

Brian, so you do not agee with this?

[bottle]

Can Somebody Else Jump In?

Probably not. But I had already written the following post when I discovered this. I put it here now rather than at A New Year's Serve. And think the elbow in the video is too high. How can grizzly bear swipe or forearm sickle bar or adduction combined with abduction happen if upper arm is so far up at end of the racket drop?

Brian, a question for the racket drop. On the backswing should one think of keeping the palm down and external shoulder rotation to get a good racket drop?

Brian: "gzhpcu - external rotation yes, palm down no (implies too much supination)."

Great Exchange

This topic fascinates me. I call it palm down, palm up or palm square. I know I'm not supposed to think about stroke technique so much but do anyway. Because it fascinates and inspires me, sometime even during a match.

As this morning when I was determined to raise my ha a few more inches. I had been playing better than usual and was feeling just a little pleased with myself (dangerous!) and so, almost by impulse, decided to take my ha up more than a few inches, yea, all the way to the clavicles.

My ta, meanwhile, drunk on newly authorized speed, was vigorously straightening to the side and swirl-hooking all the way to high point in the sky, all the way to a vertical having released the ball upward somewhere along the curved path.

To summarize, both arms went out, straightening (but ha opened to square at the same time), then rose extremely much, the ta by four feet, the ha by two feet or two-and-one-half feet if measured at racket tip.

What happened next, I'm pretty sure, is that ha and whole rest of bod finally bent as ta swirled a bit more from 12 to 11:30 o'clock.

Where in the world would somebody get an idea like that? Perhaps from watching high speed video of Roger Federer. He starts with palm down, then high over his head pushes both hands sideways, which manages finally to open ha to palm-and-strings-square (or even beyond!?). (https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...1%20500fps.mp4)

That's not for me. My palm squares on the down of downtogether uptogether. Still, once the hands are up high, they also perform in tandem.

ha bends while ta moves from 12 to 11:30 . The hands have drawn closer together.

[seano]

Things I don't like about gzhpcu's video -
1)Never mentions the lower body involvement, at all. Doesn't load the back leg and no leg, hip involvement or weight shift.
2) Don't like where the strings are pointing in trophy position or racquet drop. Would prefer strings pointing at us in trophy and at a 90 degree angle to the torso (too much forearm supination?)
3) Would like tossing arm higher after ball release with elbow in line the the shoulders.
4) Racquet goes to far over left shoulder blade in racquet drop. Should stay over right shoulder blade. When this occurs with a student. I'll stand behind student and align my racquet with the left shoulder blade and tell student to serve without touching my racquet.
My 2 cents.

[gzhpcu]

Let me put it another way....

[bottle]

Third choice: Square it.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

[doctorhl]

Clear and concise explanation by Dr. Gordon. The complexity reinforces two things for me:

1. The importance of the student’s willingness to learn the sequencing correctly as a beginner, even if some ball speed is initially sacrificed. Joint vibration is a good indicator of improper sequencing that students ignore. Adding the lower body sequencing obviously adds to the complexity. After Dr. Gordon discusses lower body mechanics, it will be interesting to note forum members’ thoughts on how and when to integrate lower and upper body mechanics with ball toss timing thrown in to complicate things!
2.Those of us adults with years of improper service mechanics and who want to learn the modern serve, will have to pay specific attention to shoulder flexibility/ strength, particularly with the external/ internal arm rotation motions required as new patterns are learned.

[gzhpcu]

What particularly interests me is the start of the swing leading to the racket drop.
PS. How avoid the waiter’s serve

[BrianGordon]

I have many issues with the concepts discussed in these videos - amazing the stuff people come up with. The main topic here appears to be the palm down during the windup (initially I thought gzhpcu was referring to the end of the backswing which would be pretty darn interesting). The palm down in the windup is perhaps one of the oldest and enduring teaching cues in tennis - it is a reasonable technique if the transition from the windup to the backswing is continuous.

For multiple reasons (I think) I talk about in upcoming videos I am a strong advocate of briefly hesitating the motion prior to initiating the backswing loop. In that case the palm down windup complicates (but does not preclude) attaining the hesitation position so I prefer my players don't use it. Overall however I don't obsess too much about wind up technique as long as the hesitation point is attained in the context of what must happen next.

[gzhpcu]

Brian, my problem (forgetting the others... )is my racket drop. Connected is the fact that my racket does not come up towards the ball on edge. Here is a slow motion video of it yesterday. If you have any suggestion as to how to correct the arm motion up to impact, I would greatly appreciate it. I have been doing swings in front of the mirror and it looks fine. The moment I am on court, muscle memory takes over...

[BrianGordon]

Hi Phil -

Over the years I've grown fond of the phrase that "the windup can't help you but it can certainly hurt you". To me the transition from windup to backswing looks, for lack of a better term, cumbersome due to the technical choices in your windup. Based on this transition I think it will very difficult to attain the racquet drop position you desire on court.The coming videos should give you some ideas of things you can try. If not, we can readdress this post. As I tell my players often - keep fighting.

[gzhpcu]

Thank you Brian .