Muscle memory

[gzhpcu]

Thought I had made progress, yet video says no.... back to the old drawing board....

[don_budge]

A Couple of Things...ferli001

Your posts are inspiring me to draw upon how I felt the golf swing and its tempo and the confidence I had in letting the momentum build. I have tended to compartmentalize the two sports rather than move between them --partly because they are so different and yet so alike. hey, you got me thinking. Oh and by the way, I chose my ferli001 name not thinking about posting or gender. I am "she" Cheers

Thanks ferli001. I have been known in certain circles to be an inspirational teacher. Certain limited circles. I have spent a good deal of thought in blending the two activities. As different as they are. One might say that golf has certain elements of the infinite whereas tennis might tend to be defined by the finite. No two golf courses in the world are the same and you can play the same golf course a million times and you will never play it the same way twice. The tennis court on the other hand is the same anywhere in the world. From an airplane they all look alike. Same size...those magical metaphysical lines. What a great invention.

I chose my user_name in a funny roundabout way. I was searching the web for a video of the Don Budge backhand and I landed in tennisplayer.net. I had known Don Budge for a couple of summers when I was young (1972 and 1973) so when I joined I signed up as don_budge...never knowing there was a forum here that I would spend a significant amount of time writing about tennis under the name don_budge. Among other things.

A true "growth" mindset! this is when tennis (or golf) becomes something more than just a game --its an attitude, a way of thinking about life. At least, it is for me.

For sure: the video is the analyst in the relationship between one's serve, one's desire, and stubborn old muscle memory. But darn it, we will get there!
cheers

When you are all in it certainly becomes something more than just a game. I have heard some say that it becomes an obsession but I prefer to think of it as a fascination. Obsession doesn't sound nearly as healthy. But certainly if you pursue either to become the best that you can be in the hunt for the perfect you it is at the very least a way of life. I think that the two activities are God's gift to humanity in terms of recreation. What else challenges you on all aspects of your being. Intellectual, physical, emotion and even spiritual? It almost becomes religion. Both games have a tremendous amount of ritual when you start to get deep.

For sure these activities become exercises of a physical endeavour, psychological analysis, philosophical questions and even trying to reach a higher spiritual plane. It's a science. Yet at the same time it is purely metaphysical in nature. Nothing exact. No road maps. Just start hacking your way through the brush. Well, not exactly. More like a Sherlock Holmes hot on the trail of a search for what pleases you.

Pardon me as I am lost in thought as of late. Existential experiences abound. Thank you ferli001 "for making me think".

ahhh "prof" Don_budge, your insights crack me up! Yes you are right, my approach is a legacy of my golfing mind and I had not realized it. Ok, so I loved spending hours on the range, working on targets and shots. I loved the time alone, and the time on the course where I would find a green on the back nine and chip and putt til sunset or clear away a patch of snow to work on my chipping in the dead of winter. Indeed, I struggled at first when I started playing tennis with this lack of alone concentrated time. You know what I mean? And then I discovered a wall in my gym!!! I love the wall. Now, I also love to hit with partners and league --so its not like I am anti-social or anything. Now, I wonder, whether high achieving golfers are more technique oriented than tennis players? is there more variety in tennis swings than there is in golf swings? Probably?

I don't want however to walk this thread away from its original topic... but this is all fascinating to me.
So, anyway, when I changed my golf grip, I grooved it on the range first. This is how I was thinking of doing with my serve. But you suggest not.... hmm. I can see the value of integrating practice sets. Give that a try. 15 minutes on court plus working in front of mirrors at the gym.

I do know what you mean. Trust me I do. There were moments in each sport when I reached a certain level of perfection. If only for a moment or two. But it's all personal...we are all different. You certainly have the mindset. The tools. To create your game. The wall. You cannot beat it and it will never quit on you. Most get bored with it. But this is where that golfer mentality that you talk about pays off. Both sports require an infinite combination of patience (stubbornness) and passion. For the love of the game.

Don't ever think twice about changing directions in mid thread. These are the most interesting and thought provoking...I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om5uhnjksVI

So let me ask you this ferli001...what exactly did you change your grip from and then to? I was watching this Seve Ballesteros video and he talks about the grip about two or three minutes into it. His left hand is "weaker" than I have been using and the change "feels" profound. I don't need a video camera to verify how it feels. I am just itching to get to the range to experiment with it.

Yeah...balance. Did I mention that I say that golf is a game of energy and balance and that tennis is golf on the run? Tell me about the grip. Thanks.

If only it were so simple as to say "muscle memory". But then again...that wouldn't be any fun.

[gzhpcu]

I saw on the video, that I need to stay much more loose.... thought I was, but wasn't.....

[don_budge]

I saw on the video, that I need to stay much more loose.... thought I was, but wasn't.....

Staying loose is more than a state of mind. Perhaps the pushups are a bit counterproductive in your case as strength is not the issue where flexibility might be. Ever considered something like this. Try it with Ester...she would love for you to join her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppToA1N0CgE

[don_budge]

Lyin' Myelin...Schmyelin. Old School Work Ethics. Finally...Sphairistike!

Interesting fact: (at least to me)

Muscle memory is actually the myelination of the nerves needed for a particular muscular movement. The more you perform the particular movement, myelin (fatty-like tissue) forms around the nerves involved. The more the nerve fires, the more myelin wraps around it. The more myelin, the faster the signal travels to the muscle, creating neuro-pathways. Thus making for a decrease in wait time and an increase in processing speed of the brain.

Changing strokes is so difficult because you need to form new pathways and built up the myelin around the nerves for the new movement, while not having the brain send the signal down the old pathway. That's why it's so important to start new players with the proper technique and develop the most efficient pathways.

A visual image of what it's like to change a neuro-pathway, imagine you're inside a tennis court with a fence surrounding it. Outside the fence, the grass has grown so tall you can't see anything. There's a building a distance, through the years you have beaten a path to the building. Unfortunately, it's not a direct path, now you need to find the most efficient way to get to the building. It's a process to beat down the brush to find the most efficient way. Often times, not quite sure where you are going and getting lost.

Change is difficult. First one must realize the need for change and then comes the hard part. The work. Learn this early in life and the whole deal becomes manageable. If you don't learn this early...it's going to be a tough road to hoe. Nice posts seano. I don't believe that anyone has made it any clearer regarding this mystic goo. Lyin'...smilin'...myelin.

The Path of Least Resistance...LYIN', MYELIN, SMILIN'

Who was it that wrote..."the second half of a man's life is made up of nothing but the habits he has acquired during the first half." Why it was Fyodor Dostoyevsky who wrote this way back in 1871 in his epic novel called "The Devils" or "The Demons". Loosely interpreted it has been called "The Possessed". My father gave me this quote among others once upon a time. A very wise and brilliant man in his own right. My father...

Step away from your stubborn service motions and practice "letting go" of old things that you no longer need. Accept new thoughts and concepts of your existence and allow you body to be free of the old shackles that bind you in knots. Assuring you that your life is nothing more of the same repetitions of your youth.

So now...in the midst of my rebirth in golf. My reincarnation. At first I found one thing...I had forgotten everything.

But the lines that kept coming to me in my hour of need were the most important for me at the time:

"If you can dream— and not make dreams your master;
If you can think— and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools"

"And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools". My God...were truer words never spoken? I just got down to work. Physically, emotionally, intellectually and even spiritually. This is what it means to be a tennis player or a golf player. These two recreational endeavours are God's gift to mankind so that we can challenge ourselves through all that we are made of. The challenge is a human experience. So LYIN',MYELIN...SMILIN'. It's all the same to me. I'm building with worn-out tools. I couldn't be happier with what I am doing.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-sph2.htm

But be that as it may. Who has the time to fiddle around with how to hit a ball this way or that? The ancient Greeks? They called it Sphairistike. It may mean "playing with balls". God's gift to man in terms of recreation. Game that are played by taking shots. Shots designed and engineered to be true and tested. Based upon repetitive motions. Ritual...like a mantra or a prayer.

How many months am I into my reincarnation? My rebirth. Once again turning to golf. Only this time with REALLY worn out tools. Once again from the beginning...or so it seems. It isn't so bad. Actually I am right back in the hunt...at least on the range. Out on the course it is not so consistent...but I have already stumbled upon some pars. It's how it starts. Until one day you find yourself on the 15th hole even par and trying to get the horse in the barn. To stay at even par.

What a wacky world we live in. It is no wonder that we fragile humans look for a distraction. These used to be games for royalty...the leisure set. But now any Tom, Dick or Harry can participate. It helps to swallow the bitter pill. Or whatever ails you. My worn out tools are Mizuno MP-33 irons and an old Titleist 975 driver with 8.5 degrees of loft. An old Scotty Cameron putter that one day putted like God...I shot 67 on a par 73 to win the 35 and overs at the age of 53. I was the oldest. That was eleven years ago. My body is eleven years older now. What happened to all of that juice? I bought a minimal carry bag. Nobody takes carts here in Sweden. This game was meant for walking.

It seems that I cannot help myself once again. It takes on a life of its own. I am compelled to go back to the course unless I am just too dog tired to realistically be able to do myself any good. Yesterday I took the idea of a slightly altered grip to the course. A necessary adjustment. The left hand seems to hinge more naturally. I could "feel" it in my office as I gripped a 52 degree wedge I have there. I seemed to give me a potentially better "feel" for the short shots. I don't have time to build neurological pathways. I have to use my noodle, figure it out and then...just do it.

The other day I was back in the practice sand trap. How many shots did I attempt...100? 150? How many did I make out? 70 percent...78.9 percent? It wasn't like I was a complete beginner. But I still think I suck. So I try not to punish myself. I try to summon up my father's voice from my psychosis. Summon the calm. The pragmatic. Thank you...Father.

Yeah...relaxation is a big part of it. But it can be tough when you are trying to coax from your body what no longer exists. But somehow this is fun to me. It's what I do. Like an old Sherlock Holmes...digging around in the earth trying to find a clue. Something I can take to the course.

Pardon my while I self indulge. But I really do it for us. The Team. My Dad was all about the team. He's old school. Like my favourite old men. I love those guys. Thank you for listening.

Not a bad thread after all.

[ferli001]

hi, team! so, about the change of grip... I am not sure I can say anything helpful here at all. I played at a time when drivers were made of wood. And the other day, I came across a site that talked about golfers "throwing" their swing rather than pulling. So much must have changed about teaching golf. So, I have no clue -- all I can say is that midway through my teens I had to change from a strong grip to the "proper" grip and it was painful -- but otherwise, I would have been limited in my development of the game. I remember long hours on the range ... but then I loved long hours on the range.

don_budge, impressive to play at such a high level both golf and tennis! But I have to think a bit about your reference to Sherlock Holmes -- in so far as learning by researching all the technical aspects, sure. A student of every clue possible that might make a slight impact, Ok. But to look for the piece that is missing can lead to thinking that it is already there, laid out in plain sight somehow and we have to just "find it". Not sure. This is why I didn't pick up golf again. Too comparative for me. Too much about finding and remembering rather than about imagining and dreaming. On the other hand, all this thinking about golf is a lot of fun and thought-provoking!

more later, cheers

[gzhpcu]

Staying loose is more than a state of mind. Perhaps the pushups are a bit counterproductive in your case as strength is not the issue where flexibility might be. Ever considered something like this. Try it with Ester...she would love for you to join her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppToA1N0CgE

Thanks. I do plenty of stretching too. I think it is mental. Just got an idea which I never tried, and I think might help. Will try it tomorrow and hope for the best...

[ferli001]

Hi Phil, looking forward to hearing how it goes with your new idea. Keeping fingers crossed.

[doctorhl]

The golf/tennis discussions are fascinating. I need feedback from you guys because I think sport crossover movement analysis can help some people if used correctly.(like visualizing a drag bunt in baseball for a beginner to stop a early hand release in golf).

Can one compare tennis and golf players’ style as either being hitters or strikers? My aging joints tell me to pursue a “strike” style(Federer or Ben Hogan) in which the ball is visualized as being in the way of a stroke rather than struck at. Assuming my biomechanics are in the range of correctness, I strive to feel very little vibration in any joint, particularly on the serve. No vibration and I usually have correct muscle tension levels and good timing, provided I don’t try to consciously alter racket head/ club speed. When I made the move from old school to new school tennis strokes in my fifties, I definitely started down the vibration injury road, although my power game improved significantly. I paid the same injury price in taking up golf in my forties and copying a “stack snd tilt” modern hitting style in golf. It seems the astute instructor in either sport can help the student pursue becoming a striker or hitter depending on body characteristics at the student’s current age, temperament, etc. I seem to be able to help others much better than myself. I seem to get in the way(my Ph.D. In qualitative sports skill analysis doesn’t help). I need a “feel” tennis/golf mindset.

[ferli001]

So glad the conversation is resonating and bringing added perspectives. In learning a relatively new sport to me, the injury prevention issue is at the forefront of my mind. I had tennis elbow last fall due to overtraining in tennis in addition to typing. I had just switched to a new racket and I think that was the new factor which led to the inflammation. I decided to rehab completely --and just work on fitness. it was really hard to stop and I have given a lot of thought to "overtraining" or "burnout" in other careers --like the academic --and what could be learned. A bit off topic here --but I am so fascinated by how pro tennis players handle their injuries and rehab from an emotional and mental perspective.

Anyway, I decided to properly rehab and since Jan I have been injury free. I think the athletic mindset tends to not recognize overtraining --because "pushing oneself" is so much part of the attitude. But lesson learned, and I have so much more respect now for recovery and rest and training in the gym, stretching, etc. Interesting your mention feeling vibration in joints. While you probably mean it in another sense, I train with vibration. I do my strength and balance training on a vibration platform and it creates a 360degree muscle engagement. Which is intense and apparently very efficient.

The question of comparing "feel" across different sports I agree, is fascinating and relatively new to me too. I had compartmentalized the two. "Crossover movement analysis" as you put it -eloquently. So, this morning, for instance, I realized that maybe I could tap into my "old" golf swing where I understand the hips and shoulders were on different alignments in order to try to solve an intellectual problem I have with the serve: the the moment where the "bend of the elbow" begins the drop and the legs and hips are somehow involved in deepening the drop (Gordon's serve analysis on this site). My shoulders over-rotate. I believe. This racket drop-business "feel" currently escapes me but..... maybe my golf swing can be tapped to unlock something? Can't wait to try

can you say more about why your skill analysis gets in the way of the "feel"? I know golf instruction has changed so much since I played the sport so I have no technical approach here --its all muscle memory. I do think, however, that visualizing and feeling go hand in hand.

And don_budge, how do you tap into tennis for your golf and in what ways? I remember my reaction to the men's head coach who wanted to change my swing once I got to college by using a tennis racket. Oh, the irony! At that time, I balked and refused.

cheers you all

[doctorhl]

ferli001: skill analysis is great if you can eventually bridge it into the subconscious with “feel”. There is something to my improved golf performance after told that my driver distance was limited primarily because of flexibility in getting a full turn and lack of significant hip/ shoulder separation at the end of the backswing. His answer was stretching and hours of swinging. That becomes a injury issue past 60. I wonder how much of your lack of racket drop has more to do with lack of external rotation of the upper arm. Getting that deep trunk/hip rotation sure does require more timing and I wonder about the cost/benefit ratio(injury/increased performance) At increasedperformance) at this stage of life. There

[doctorhl]

Sorry, dang IPad!

ferli001: skill analysis is great if you can eventually bridge it into the subconscious with “feel”. There is something to my improved golf performance after being told that my driver distance was limited primarily because of flexibility in getting a full turn and lack of significant hip/ shoulder separation at the end of the backswing. His answer was stretching and hours of swinging. That becomes a injury issue past 60. I wonder how much of your lack of racket drop has more to do with lack of external rotation of the upper arm. Getting that deep trunk/hip rotation sure does require more timing and I wonder about the cost/benefit ratio(injury/increased performance) at this stage of life. There is something to the “ two beer” swing for increased performance! Whether it relaxes the muscles , the mind or both, have an effect at times.

[don_budge]

The golf/tennis discussions are fascinating. I need feedback from you guys because I think sport crossover movement analysis can help some people if used correctly.(like visualizing a drag bunt in baseball for a beginner to stop a early hand release in golf).

Can one compare tennis and golf players’ style as either being hitters or strikers? My aging joints tell me to pursue a “strike” style(Federer or Ben Hogan) in which the ball is visualized as being in the way of a stroke rather than struck at.

I need a “feel” tennis/golf mindset.

The other day the ATP website had a picture on their cover page of Roger Federer absolutely compressing a tennis ball to nearly nothing in the middle of his 97 square inch Wilson tennis racquet. The visual of the position of his body, his grip and the racquet was priceless. It was the best view of his backhand grip that I have seen since he changed racquets and his backhand seemed to dramatically improve. I maintained all along that that the extra size in his racquet has enabled him to strengthen his grip which is why his backhand is "suddenly" that much stronger. The image was a perfect shot of a perfect moment in time where everything about Roger's technique, his body and his mind were one with the universe. He was truly feeling it.

On the other hand there is Ben Hogan's book "The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" which on the cover is an illustration of Ben Hogan swinging and his club head is just about to make contact with the golf ball and I can tell you for certain...he is going to compress it. In the illustration you can see as well as imagine how Hogan's club shaft has flexed and the club head is about to catapult and make mush of the golf ball.

While there are many points of similarity in both images it is the position of the wrist that seems to stick out in my mind. Are they striking the ball? Perhaps you might say so. Certainly the ball was in the way of the implement. But let's be clear...it is a stroke.

Wonderful thoughts...more to follow Doc.

dr. don_budge

[gzhpcu]

Still no change. I do plenty of shadow strokes and all is well. Just as I want it. On court, serving, the old autopilot takes over... Am no longer in control of my body...

[don_budge]

The golf/tennis discussions are fascinating. I need feedback from you guys because I think sport crossover movement analysis can help some people if used correctly.

Can one compare tennis and golf players’ style as either being hitters or strikers? My aging joints tell me to pursue a “strike” style(Federer or Ben Hogan) in which the ball is visualized as being in the way of a stroke rather than struck at. Assuming my biomechanics are in the range of correctness, I strive to feel very little vibration in any joint, particularly on the serve. No vibration and I usually have correct muscle tension levels and good timing, provided I don’t try to consciously alter racket head/ club speed. When I made the move from old school to new school tennis strokes in my fifties, I definitely started down the vibration injury road, although my power game improved significantly. I paid the same injury price in taking up golf in my forties and copying a “stack snd tilt” modern hitting style in golf. It seems the astute instructor in either sport can help the student pursue becoming a striker or hitter depending on body characteristics at the student’s current age, temperament, etc. I seem to be able to help others much better than myself. I seem to get in the way(my Ph.D. In qualitative sports skill analysis doesn’t help). I need a “feel” tennis/golf mindset.

Thanks doctorhl for entering into the discussion on muscle memory. We have gravitated here and there looking for something to hang the hat on. But you statement about needing a feel tennis/golf mindset is spot on and just goes to show that there is an element to these games that is sort of beyond language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrJwCF6ws3E

Speaking of gravity...this is an interesting lecture on the gravitational forces in the golf swing. Your thoughts about injury and tension are correct and they illustrate just how destructive tension is in the golf swing...or tennis swings. Did you read my post in this thread about the rollercoaster feel in the service swing.

Golf swings...tennis swings. It is all about getting that car on the track and letting gravity work through the subtle movements of your body to transfer the energy through the wrist as they deliver the payload.

If you want to play the game you must feel your way through it for optimal results. For good vibrations. We are vibrating too. We are energy beings. But to harness that energy we have to get out of our own ways and overthinking things sometimes has a negative effect on the result we seek. I can certainly appreciate your studies but I often wonder if this falls under "my need to know" line in the sand for teaching students. As I have said...I want to teach them how to feel. About everything. Not just their tennis or golf.

I wonder if either of you or ferli001 have read "Golf in the Kingdom" by Micheal Murphy. A truly wonderful book about the "Science of Spirit". It takes place in Scotland when a young aspiring writer/golfer by chance runs into a rather mysterious golf pro at a rather mysterious golf club. The conversations and teachings that transpire say a lot about human beings and the craft of golf. About a lot things actually. I have read many, many golf books. This is my all-time favourite by far. The Kingdom and The Goldmine may be one and the same thing. The space between our ears.