Realities of the Straight Arm Forehand

[johnyandell]

Let's discuss Brian Gordon's latest article, "Realities of the Straight Arm Forehand"!

[bottle]

Thank you for this article. I'm just sad it's over.

[seano]

I love this video. I'm a visual learner and reading Brian's articles has always been an arduous task. Thru many attempts I was finally able to understand Brian's concepts. There's a youtube video with Brian at a USPTA conference explaining the ATP forehand that was also very informative. It's very complicated material but feel I have a much greater understanding of his research. I hope there are more videos like this to come. For me, it's information like this that make tennisplayer.net so valuable and second to none.

[bobbyswift]

Great informative video. Would ask Brian about what he is calling the roll. The girl in video definitely doesn't achieve this position when she is taking her normal swing. I have tried to get people this feeling with limited success. Wondering what Brian does with his athletes to achieve this. Thanks.

[seano]

If i'm understanding this correctly, Independent arm movement from the shoulder joint is critical to the type 3 forehand. It allows for the true heavy ball, which is the combination of forward and vertical racquet head speed. 2 things that can diminish the independent arm movement and allows for a trunk dominated swing are 1) close elbow position to the trunk in the type 1 or 2 backswing that goes behind your body 2) close elbow position in the forward swing ( not pointing forward). Brian said 160 - 180* is ideal, I'm assuming he's talking about at contact. Jack Sock's forehand was used briefly in the video, I measured his elbow angle at contact from a video I have of him in my pro stroke library, using V1 sports and he measured around 140*. His elbow earlier in the forward swing was much closer to his body, then straighten out more the closer he got to contact. The more I understand of Brian's research, the more fascinating it is.

[stotty]

Terrific article and how great to get a walk thru from the man himself. Like seano says, it's great to have a video article like this to compliment the written articles. I like to learn both ways...video and text.

I hit with a straight arm but sadly I use a strong continental grip, basically the grip people serve with, which greatly limits it use, shame. I use the wrist to generate topspin which I know contradicts John's theory about the wrist being passive and purely about alignment. It's just when you play with my grip the wrist feel like it's pumping to get topspin.

It really is tough to get girls hitting with an outside backswing. I can get my students to do it in my lessons but when they come back next week the swing has always increased significantly and the whole process starts again. The bottom line: why do girls find it so difficult, even those with much ability?

[stroke]

My non quantitative theory on the Nadal forehand is that the straight arm configuration allows him to consistently attack the outside of the ball in order to get that hook spin of his on the ball and expand the court. For instance, Sock has about the same rpm's as Nadal but he has of course a bent arm strong western grip fh and it looks to me it produces a "kick"type forehand, attacking the inside of the ball. I think Nadal, with his semi western grip, is about as semi as one could get to hit with a straight atm.

[arturohernandez]

My non quantitative theory on the Nadal forehand is that the straight arm configuration allows him to consistently attack the outside of the ball in order to get that hook spin of his on the ball and expand the court. For instance, Sock has about the same rpm's as Nadal but he has of course a bent arm strong western grip fh and it looks to me it produces a "kick"type forehand, attacking the inside of the ball. I think Nadal, with his semi western grip, is about as semi as one could get to hit with a straight atm.

I recently had a lesson with a pro that pointed out my tendency to keep the elbow tucked into too much. So I have been holding the racket in front of me me more and as I turn it kind of stays away from my body and to the side.

After doing this for a while and then shadowing it in the mirror, I noticed that I tend to use my shoulder a lot more. In fact, for a while it was a little sore.

Since Federer also hits with a straight arm I wonder if he also hits a kind of hook forehand as well.

But, yes, it seems to be a different model of the forehand. Kind of like you are using a lasso.

I tried this on my backhand as well and immediately noticed that it feels like a Wawrinka backhand. Much more shoulder.

I really like the explanation of how the shoulder can generate so much power.

We see the hands and contact and all those parts of the forehand very clearly.

The idea that the shoulder could generate so much of the power is much less apparent but was so clear when Brain explained it.

Great Video!

[10splayer]

If i'm understanding this correctly, Independent arm movement from the shoulder joint is critical to the type 3 forehand. It allows for the true heavy ball, which is the combination of forward and vertical racquet head speed. 2 things that can diminish the independent arm movement and allows for a trunk dominated swing are 1) close elbow position to the trunk in the type 1 or 2 backswing that goes behind your body 2) close elbow position in the forward swing ( not pointing forward). Brian said 160 - 180* is ideal, I'm assuming he's talking about at contact. Jack Sock's forehand was used briefly in the video, I measured his elbow angle at contact from a video I have of him in my pro stroke library, using V1 sports and he measured around 140*. His elbow earlier in the forward swing was much closer to his body, then straighten out more the closer he got to contact. The more I understand of Brian's research, the more fascinating it is.

A more compelling question for me is why does independent arm movement from the shoulder joint allow for a better combination of vertical and horizontal RHS. My theory is, that the straight arm allows for a much greater range of motion to turn the wiper. Try this...take an easternish forehand grip, straighten the arm, and "turn the wiper'. Do the same with a bent arm. No comparison. This has tremendous implications when considering the vertical vs horizontal components. One can swing on relatively level path (maintaining horizontal speed) while still rotating the arm significantly on the vertical plane. HEAVY BALL.

[BrianGordon]

Hello All,

It is good to hear that people like the video format - I'm aware the articles were pretty brutal to get through. As I watched this clip it was a painful reminder how crippled I've been for quite some time - takes a lot of joy out being on the court. Happy to report that the arthritis infested hips have been replaced with shiny fake ones and I'm moving like I'm not a day over 50.

Here are attempts at the questions I noted:

BobbySwift - the roll is the twisting rotation of the arm segment(s) - some combination of shoulder internal rotation (straight arm) and forearm pronation (bent elbow). Sarah is hitting a high forehand here and working to flatten it out (less flip less roll). None-the-less she does exhibit limited twisting rotation of the humerus (30 degrees-ish roll). It is evident in the vertical motion of the racquet leading into contact but the typical wiper effect in the follow-through is muted because she releases her wrist - not a great thing especially if any of this release occurs prior to impact - this is a whole other discussion. I have no magic bullet - just a lot of patience and diligence.

Seano - yes, at contact but that angle shouldn't change much throughout the forward swing. This is the main problem in forcing a straight-arm - no problem at end of backswing - big problem at contact. You can see Sarah has a small flexion early in the forward swing. Used to be a BIG flexion - work in progress.

Stotty - I think the problem for girls is they are typically being converted from a much more inside swing - breaking that motor program is quite a challenge. On the other hand my girls have ultimately gotten as good if not better than my boys at this type of swing. In my case it is probably more about individual discipline than gender.

10splayer - you still seem to have good insight into this stroke - don't have much to add to your answer to the question

Thanks all for watching and the kind comments - the content related insights and questions are also great as always.

[bobbyswift]

Glad do hear your getting around a lot better and thank you for the answer to my question.

[cjohnson9]

I think you also need to address the grips used, in that hitting with a double bend seems more successful with a western or severe western like
Sock, where Delpo and Federer use variations of the eastern grip.

[stroke]

I think you also need to address the grips used, in that hitting with a double bend seems more successful with a western or severe western like
Sock, where Delpo and Federer use variations of the eastern grip.

I am curious also about grip implications, but if you just put the racquet into contact position with the straight arm technique, I think it reveals pretty quickly one can only be so towards the western to make it work. I would think Fed and Nadal are pretty close to the end(Fed more easternish, Nadal more semi westernish) of the grips spectrum that can be used. Sock for instance could not possibly hit a straight arm forehand with his grip I do not think. Same for Novak.

[ffnz]

Brian,
Thank you for this follow up to your original article, which I found clear and very helpful, and glad to hear you are well on the mend. A couple of questions if you have time:

- when there is a bend in the elbow, it seems that consciously bringing the elbow forward (as part of independent arm movement) after completion of the back swing helps effect external should rotation - any thoughts on whether it is useful to think of the initial move foreward in this way?

- is the internal shoulder rotation leading into contact a conscious effort, and if so how would you advise us to think of it? (For example with a straight arm, it might be rotation at the shoulder. With double bend, some players seem to consciously lift their elbow; others seem to just rotate their forearm forward, as in a sidearm throw).

- does ulnar deviation play any role during ESR at the first forward movement, and then radial deviation with ISR at contact?

Thanks again - great work!

[dane10s]

Thoroughly enjoyed Dr. Gordons article on the forehand. I agree completely and have been teaching it that way for years. I do think though that girls can learn it also. Certain girls, not all. Have you been on court, or up close, with CoCo Vandeweghe? She has the heaviest ball on the women's tour that I have had the chance to see up close. That heavy ball that Dr. Gordon discussed is what I call the "holy grail" ball to my young students. One subject that might be interesting for you to approach to help show the difficulty of a player having to deal with the other players "holy grail" ball is to show a side court view of what the ball trajectory looks like. I do this on a clip board with my kids. I draw a side view of the court, draw a typical arch over the net for what I call a junior rally balll (ball is at its highest point roughly about where it crosses the next. I then draw a line showing a heavier ball which is almost at it's highest at the receivers service line and then the ball drops like a rock falling off the end of a table. Rafa's is the best as we know. That ball makes the receiver constantly feel like they are being pushed backwards.... I"m not an eloquent writer so I hope that all makes sense......




I used to travel with an ex-pro by the name of Daniel Courcol. He was a French player back in the 90's. Was our number 1 at MSU and was number 1 in the country D1 for almost a year. Turned pro, not long enough though, and got up to about 90 or so in the world. When I would hit with him, or warm him up, his ball always pushed me backwards. Made me feel claustrophobic for lack of a better word......