Realities of the Straight Arm Forehand

[stroke]

Brian, thanks for the input/analysis of the Sock forehand. I have always thought he was doing something different with his near western grip forehand. I had noticed he seems to be somewhat straightening(as you said 160 degrees) his elbow into contact, which is very unusual. You definately shed some light on what he is doing. His forehand is massive, no doubt. I remember watching him play Dimitrov in a match and the coverage toward the end of the match showed the mph's and rpm's on their respective forehands for the match. Dimitrov of course has a beautiful forehand, Sock's was on average 10 mph's greater and 1000 rpm's greater.

[BrianGordon]

jperedo - An elbow position where your arrow indicates is pretty extreme although I would need to see your stroke video to state that unequivocally. How would you assess the timing and speed of your hip rotation is establishing the early forward swing - that placement is often indicative of over-reliance of the shoulder in that process.

mikebeck - now you've opened up a can of worms hahaha. I would not have used Sock as an example there (JY's choice). As opposed to a traditional ATP swing with a statically bent arm, I consider him as the extreme example of what I call the modern ATP forehand (as opposed to the traditional ATP forehand). I will start to get into that in (maybe) the next article.

The modern version utilizes more elbow movement in the backswing and positions the racquet to provide a very dynamic pre-rotation of the racquet leading into the flip initiation. This results in far more pre-loading torque on the arm twist rotation options and apparently much more than the shoulder alone can tolerate. This requires a bent elbow to distribute the loading between the shoulder and forearm.

And in fact Sock does this - on most incoming balls he exits the backswing elbow straight, then bends during the (turbo-charged) flip entry, then straightens somewhat in the second half of the forward swing ending at around 160 degrees elbow angle at contact.

Obviously, this adaptation to the traditional model allows very impressive shot characteristics. Whether it holds up to the traditional model in terms of simplicity, precision, consistency and safety is another question. Early anecdotal evidence makes me wonder but I keep an open mind always. Thanks for the thought provoking question!

[mikebeck]

Brian:

I really appreciate your approach. I am learning a great deal, but am confused about what you say are the drawbacks of moving to a 90 degree angle which you say limit speed and spin. You give Jack Sock as an example. I see clearly that his elbow is bent at something close to 90 degrees. Yet, he has a massive forehand. How is it that he has such a big forehand when the angle of his hitting arm is so far from straight and how is it that it is so heavy? I really appreciate your talking about not obsessing on the straight arm forehand ... I fall into the category of instructors who forced something and it was a disaster. I got straight arm forehand but then tended to result in contact points to the side and straight rather than out front.

[jperedo]

Hey Brian - thanks for the reply. I've attached an image of what I mean by elbow to the right, with an arrow showing where my elbow usually ends up. As a result it seems my elbow utilizes lots of lateral movement during the flip, and i have no choice but to double bend to properly align with the ball. I can make it work and when I don't think about straightening the arm I actually am very consistent. However i can't help but get annoyed by the inefficiency whenever I see it on video.

No matter what I do I revert to that position, which makes me wonder if it's just the ideal position given my physical attributes.

https://imgur.com/a/LTRPt7U

[BrianGordon]

mikeb - that is very kind of you to say - thanks. We've talked recently about doing something similar on the serve.

ten1050 - For sure the legs and torso are critical and yes Federer certainly makes the upper body mechanics look effortless.

wmbauer - the exact interplay of the muscles is beyond what I can determine. In sport biomechanics we focus only on the joints - actions determined by complicated agonist/antagonist relationships as you mention. The muscle level would require invasive measurement or simulation. Generally we determine the net result of muscular activity (muscle groups) to produce a joint torque such as shoulder internal rotation torque etc. With respect to the kinetic chain theory the larger muscle groups of the the lower limb would be activated first, followed by the torso, then upper limb.

The hip injury question is an interesting one. I am planning to look at this as several players of mine have suffered hip injuries to various degrees. It seems that the open stance is a source of these which makes sense based on the mechanical properties of the various stances. In the meantime I insist on closed, neutral, and semi stances which fit better with the demands of the ATP model anyway. In my case I think poor maintenance when I was young, age and genetics were to blame - I had severe osteoarthritis in both hips which has been replaced with metal, plastic and ceramics. Thanks for the great post.

jperedo - in the full swing model the elbow should be aligned with the front edge of the torso - only in the shortened adaptation (shot specific) would it be in front of the torso at the unit turn - is this what you mean by right side? The elbow in front of the torso is a popular teaching technique to keep the hand and racquet to the outside (right) but usually is the cause of the elbow drift. I don't have any magic bullets other than to make sure that the elbow placement pre-extension is understood as a (shot dependent) variable and that the full swing elbow placement aligned with the torso is the main position - from there drift is normally not an issue. Perhaps you are drifting to the full position?

[doctorhl]

wmbauer: You are right about the hip injuries. In moving from old school to new school strokes at age 55, I moved from lateral elbow epicondylitis to a torn hip labrum, then blew L4 and L5 discs. Gained a lot of power while maintaining control. but trying to learn to use bigger muscles in the wrong acceleration-deceleration sequence at that late age was costly.

[jperedo]

Hi Brian - this is awesome stuff again. Do you have any drills or teaching cues for keeping the elbow on the right side of the torso? I am getting a good flip, but no matter what I do, my elbow tends to float backwards pre-flip. Could this be a sign of muscular imbalance somewhere?

[wmbauer]

Thank you, Brian. Your work and contribution to our understanding of biomechanics has been almost mind boggling. There are so many joints involved in the tennis swing in that things become complicated very quickly. Our body moves through the use of antagonistic muscles. Everything is push/pull. A difficult question to answer is, from the ready set position which muscles begin the action of the kinetic chain? Movement occurs by pushing off the ground. But, which muscle or muscles contract first? Is it the muscles in the foot or knee that bend and straighten into the ground and up the kinetic chain eventually to the shoulders, elbow, and fingers that hold the racquet? Or is it extension and flexion beginning in the hip that sends energy both ways, down to the ground and back up? Regardless, because antagonistic muscles are at work there has to be relaxation swell as contraction. I could not help notice that your hip is bothering you. Hip injuries are extremely common with the modern forehand because of snapping into the shot. Trochanteric bursitis is basically like a sprained ankle resulting from a tight hip during winding and unwinding which is necessary to create angular momentum. I apologize if I am off-base with my comment.

[ten1050]

I have really enjoyed this forum. It does not matter if you are a tennis player, golfer, baseball player, or boxer your goal is to become a kind of striking machine. In Rod Laver's autobiography, he mentions that as a teenager he would go to a boxing gym and hit the punching bags. He was developing his legs, stomach muscles, and timing into a formidable striking machine. A number of years ago, Nick Saviano wrote an interesting article in tennisplayer where he described watching Federer practice from just ten feet away. What astonished him the most was how relaxed Federer's arm appeared. Saviano is no stranger to world class tennis since he was once a top 50 ATP player. His observation of Federer's relaxed and passive arm demonstrates the importance of the explosive strength of the legs and torso. A short but powerful burst from the hips and torso will send the arm and racket into a ferocious swing. This technique takes years of deliberate practice to master and a bountiful supply of perseverance.

Norman Ashbrooke

[ffnz]

Brian,
Thanks for your reply - excellent stuff.

[mikeb]

I have always enjoyed the many years of instructional material that you have produced. When I listened to Brian Gordon's commentary in the current issue, I concluded that it was the best of the best. What separated it from the remainder of thousands of hours of instructional video that I have viewed was the very detailed depiction of each segment of the stroke mechanics with emphasis on how slight variations produced varying results. Having him standing with the student and guiding her through the full range of the stroke allows one to more easily grasp the the proper mechanics compared with simply viewing video shot at varying angles.
I have spent countless hours viewing the numerous videos on your site detailing the biomechanics of the service motion. I have no doubt that instruction by Brian breaking down that complex motion into readily assimilated segments, similar to his approach in the Straight Arm Forehand, would have allowed me to more easily assimilate the proper mechanics and would be hailed as manna from heaven by the thousands struggling to improve their serves.

[bottle]

At last: someone who isn't afraid to discuss this stuff!

[BrianGordon]

cjohnson9 & stroke:
The straight arm can be hit with any grip - somewhere between eastern and semi probably is the best option. Variations towards conti require increasing extension of the wrist from the end of the backswing to contact. I hit it with conti - wouldn't suggest it.

ffnz:
Leading with the elbow (if bent) is a useful cue - eliminates a lot of the wristy issues that often arise. I tend to focus more on hip rotation "hips create flips".

The internal rotation requires active muscle contraction - the intensity of this depends on the efficacy of the flip (extent and timing). The extent to which this is conscious or programed depends on how long someone has done it. I do know the internal rotation, even with a solid dynamic slot, is not guaranteed and must be focused on in developing this stroke.

They can but not a desired role as it mitigates the both the dynamic slot loading and return to vertical racquet speed in the roll.

dane10s:
It makes sense and I like the holy grail description - also like your method to demonstrate the effect.

ten1050, bottle, seano:
At the highest level of abstraction the traditional atp model is defined by independent motion of the arm at the shoulder used as a significant source of racquet head speed (vertical and horizontal) and a partner with the torso in linearizing the the hand path in the forward swing.

For this reason sequencing of the motions of the pelvis, torso, and arm is paramount to decrease the load at the shoulder. The pelvis peak speed occurs 1/3 through the forward swing then decreases significantly, followed by the torso at 2/3 significally decreasing thereafter, and finally the arm from the shoulder at contact. The decrease in each of the earlier segments is the reaction to accelerating the next segment through muscular contraction (Newton 3). Deceleration of the earlier segment to "sling" the next along, though an attractive thought, has been shown not to be the case both in simulation and in vivo.

The result of proper sequencing in this chain of events ensures that even though the arm is necessarily accelerated at the shoulder through active muscular contraction, the force or load to do so is reduced - this is derived from neuromuscular benefits (force-velocity profile and stretch-shorten cycle) of the sequencing - benefits beyond what I want to get into here but that are discussed in the articles.

[bottle]

Answering One's Own Question?-- Not Really

It's only been one day since I posed my questions in # 20 . The challenge to understanding this topic, in my view, comes from residual discourse about kinetic chain and acceleration-deceleration-- discourse which one may never have entirely flushed out of one's system.

I will, until I hear compelling argument for something else, therefore go with Norman Ashbrooke's basic of remaining solid as much as possible through this most crucial part of the stroke (the hitting area).

That means fist pulling away from racket head as a result of transverse stomach muscle contraction and nothing else.

It also means butt rim continuing out and around after the straight spear part with arm not going independent before it's ready to start back.

I'm an old guy but an old guy who plays the game a lot. And who is painfully aware that any change takes a long time to perfect, even a change started long ago.

So, although I'm not a thousand per cent certain in my decision, it's better than no decision.

And I have to think that the starch in one's shoulder that keeps the arm from temporizing backward has to be close to physical action that makes the elbow ease past the trunk whether the trunk is rotating forward or not.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...nt3_250fps.mp4

[bottle]

Brian has stated that there's an initial burst from the hips in the type 3 Fh, then hips aren't involved, leading to independent shoulder movement. As opposed to the type 1 & 2 FH's that the hips rotate through-out the stroke. Thus a trunk dominated swing.

Thanks, seano, for illuminating this. What I'm still wondering about is whether transverse stomach muscles also fire before the arm lets go. But I understand that all kinds of stuff is happening at the same time, such as body extension up. Some can be explained, most likely. Other, I suspect, the player himself has to figure out.

I dunno. My enemies, which I definitely have in this website, like to accuse me of being confused. And in this case they still are right. So I use my confusion here to ask a naive, reporter-like question (the best kind, in my book).

Okay, the hips stop. And the legs, once up in the air, kick forward and back (spread) as Kerry Mitchell has said. Which helps the process. However there are many videos in which a player such as Federer just sticks one leg out while the other comes down in place. The different possibilities all help the hips to stop or slow.

Question: When hips stop, do transverse stomach muscles take over, and that's the explanation of arm pushing forward while being passive and still connected just as J. Donald Budge protege Norman Ashbrooke recommends? Or does the gut never get involved so that the stoppage (acceleration-deceleration, Vic Braden called it), goes from hips direct to independent arm? Or is there all three things happening: 1, hips turn; 2, shoulders turn; 3, fist acceleration in which the role of left hand in stopping the shoulders would become paramount? Or would this third option with all its moving parts take too long since the space we're talking about is from the flip to just past contact, a very brief part of the total tract?