The Sampras Serve: Mystery of the High Elbow

[johnyandell]

Would love to get your thoughts on my latest article, "The Sampras Serve: Mystery of the High Elbow"

[gzhpcu]

Hi John, I brought this up in 2006...

[arturohernandez]

Fascinating!

I have wondered a lot about this myself because I have the sense that in serving one can hit a flat or slice in front and a topspin serve finishing more to the side.

So my question is whether servers look more like Sampras on their second serves.

I did a quick search and I found Grosjean.

Not as high as Pete but he seems to have the elbow up thing a bit.

Maybe this is really due to Sampras's flexibility and extreme looseness.

His first serve really does look like an exaggerated second serve on everyone else.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/sebastien_grosjean/sg_serve/sg_2nd_serve/sg_2nd_serve.html?SG2ndSDeuceFront1.mov

[gzhpcu]

Look at Dominic Thiem’s kick serve.

[doctorhl]

I feel like part of Pete's high elbow is an injury prevention factor to decelerate that massive spin and head speed generated by early internal rotation. Anytime I tried to accelerate the kick serve with heavy internal rotation, I got into shoulder problems in finishing the follow through.

[johnyandell]

Phil,
Not sure where. But you may have been ahead of your time...

[stotty]

A terrific article. The deceleration thing really makes sense. Pete was a totally relaxed server, really loose. I found it the most striking quality of his serve, actually. I have watched Pete serve at Wimbledon and it's the best serve ever to date. It's the best because his second serve is so good. I have seen Roger hit great heights of serving and get quite close to Pete, but Pete's serve was heavier and seemed to be on tap all the time. But it was his second that was so, so good and this article helps me better understand why that was. I get it now.

[bottle]

Look at how far back Pete's butt is at start of a serve. We all do the opposite thing, right? Lead with left hip toward the net, no? But if we do it from a more upright position, we get less of a good wriggle, n'est-ce pas? Nicht wahr? Can't anyone have a long trolley track?

[jschaff]

After reading this article, I went out and hit some serves myself. After I got warmed up I started including this elbow elevation and my racket head seemed to speed up at the point of elevation of the elbow. Actually what I think was happening was the racket DECELERATION seemed to slow down so the racket head continued moving quickly. The ball came out quicker and more consistently.

As a biomechanical nerd, I think what was happening was raising the elbow shortened and raised the moment or lever arm from the point of rotation to the ball contact point on the strings. And the arc of the racket face around the body to the end of the follow through point was shortened and raised up in the air with that elbow elevation. You will notice that, in the follow through, the racket head ends up and the level of Pete's chest wall rather than down through the left side of his body like most others.

The result of this maneuver were a quicker and more consistent serve. It is a brilliant maneuver that Pete implemented, whether by accident or on purpose.

[tweaner]

Wondering,what is the actual degrees of right elbow elevation as it is related to the right side of Pete's chest? We normally give instruction (Im a certified tennis teacher) to keep the right elbow down below the right shoulder level while serving (Wawrinka breaks this rule), but - if you look at the deep shoulder tilt that PEte has - seems like his right elbow is about 90 degrees away from his right chest - basically even level with his right shoulder (but everything is tilted severely) Wondering if John knows?

[johnyandell]

tweaner,
Look at this--or any of the other clips in hs archive of Pete and see what you think:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Pete_Sampras_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=PS%201st%20S%20Ad%20Rear%20125fps.mp4

[jeremy93]

After reading the article twice I still don’t know why he bends his elbow so much and so early in the follow through. Is it because he swings so fast? Is it because he is swinging less towards the target? Why does he bend his elbow so much and so early in the swing compared to just about every other pro? Thank you.

[johnyandell]

As I hope the article explains, he completes his irs sooner and higher than anyone--plus is swinging more to the right. Most players have some elbow relaxation, but just lower and fuerther out in the followthrough. Since he is so relaxed it just naturally bends from that completed isr.

[johncraig]

John, this is a great article that describes the true Sampras motion...the magic of creating easy power. Your explanation of the internal shoulder rotation (vs. fore-arm pronation) as the key movement within the swing is indeed a critical component that has long been misunderstood. From my research, including those who knew Pete Fisher, who trained Sampras on the serve (It wasn't Landsdorp), simulating the technique of Pancho Gonzales by retaining a high elbow was deliberate. The intent to do this allowed Sampras to create more rotational power, as the shoulder can rotate more when it stays vertical longer, versus the typical forward swing motion where the racquet head and the arm move at similar speed, like we see so many club level players do. Thanks for a great article!

[stroke]

John, this is a great article that describes the true Sampras motion...the magic of creating easy power. Your explanation of the internal shoulder rotation (vs. fore-arm pronation) as the key movement within the swing is indeed a critical component that has long been misunderstood. From my research, including those who knew Pete Fisher, who trained Sampras on the serve (It wasn't Landsdorp), simulating the technique of Pancho Gonzales by retaining a high elbow was deliberate. The intent to do this allowed Sampras to create more rotational power, as the shoulder can rotate more when it stays vertical longer, versus the typical forward swing motion where the racquet head and the arm move at similar speed, like we see so many club level players do. Thanks for a great article!

So true John. The only serves I can think of comparable to Pete is Goran and Roddick. JY actually quantitatively documented that Roddick had a higher spin/speed ratio than Pete, no easy ask. Other than the giants, Isner, Opelka, Karlovic, those guys are the gold standard to me.