Serving Mystery: Hit Up Or Hit Down?

[johnyandell]

Agreed! And great news about the result.

[arturohernandez]

Hi John,

BTW, we did a lot of modeling of the arm rotation. So maybe this is just a tweak.

Maybe it is overthinking but it does seem to me that their is a fear of the serve going out and that visualizing hitting down by hitting over the edge of the ball gets rid of this fear.

It just feels less threatening to think that I am driving the ball down somehow.

And as I feel less threatened my body just naturally goes up.

I played doubles on Saturday and was able to comfortably produce a nice spin serve.

Today I was serving literally at close to 90% on practice points.

I have never been able to do this before because the balls would go slightly long on second serves which led to a reduction in pace.

First serves used to be fast but not as reliable.

Your video helped immensely even if the solution is not exactly what you would have recommended.

Whatever works, right?

[johnyandell]

Arturo,
Think you may be over thinking this. Model the drop. Model the full arm rotation in the extension of the swing. Get the toss in the right place. The up and down elements will magically happen.

[arturohernandez]

John, I have a slightly different question. It seems to me that getting the racket to face slightly down at contact can be quiet challenging given the drop and the rotation needed to create a proper finish (i.e. pronation as they like to call it). I have seen girls that hit with a rather pancake like grip and yet have a very nice rhythm. I am going to have to film one of these one days. The amazing thing is the ball goes in. But I am guessing that the external rotation of the shoulder and hence of the racket is much less than it should be.

So the tricky part for me is to rotate the racket from drop to finish up and out and at the same time making sure the ball doesn't go to the back fence.

If one focuses on the extreme rotation of the racket from drop to finish, would it make sense to kind of exaggerate the racket facing down.

Or maybe one could try a grip more toward an eastern or even strong eastern backhand just to get people to actually have to rotate the shoulder and finish out.

Not as the way the serve will eventually be hit but as the way to make sure that one doesn't short circuit the external rotation of the shoulder.

It is still amazing to me that any person can rotate the shoulder that much and make contact with the ball and keep it in the court.

[stroke]

Nadal does seem to get an unusual amount of swing on his serve. I remember Agassi once commented on this after an early career match vs Nadal he had about the spin component of it(saying it had more on it, was more effective than it appeared).

[stotty]

Rafa's is definitely a more laboured serve than Roger's. Having a toss less forward can't be of any benefit in terms of velocity.

It was a good observation of John's. I hadn't noticed this aspect of Rafa's serve despite watching it many times. It is amazing what you other things don't see when you attention is focused on another aspect of a stroke.

For maximum weight transfer and efficiency I think it better to have the toss further in front like Roger.

[johnyandell]

Could be! But if you look at his landing in the hs archives he lands at least as far in the court as Federer.

[bdole]

I'm thinking Rafa chose his rearward contact point to further emphasize the lefty curve on the ball. More effective for him than pure speed. And he's going to stay behind the baseline unless the opponent short balls him, so why lean in and get out of position?

[johnyandell]

Thanks Dave. For those who don't know him Dave is an august figure and past president of the USPTA.

[daveporter]

John,



Very good article on the serve. It is much like the old adage "watch the ball hit the strings" on ground strokes. The eye is incapable of actually seeing the moment of contact with the ball but the use of the phrase is very appropriate for keeping the direction of visual attention on the ball as it is tracked prior to contact. Similarly, the upward and/or outward motion of the racquet is significant in preparation for variety of spins, height of contact, even direction on the serve.



You can actually hit the ball over the net and into the court (service motion) by holding the racquet with just the middle finger and the thumb and swinging the racquet up while leaving your wrist above your head. This demonstrates the racquet head only going up and down with no forward (or negligibly forward) motion. Of course, this is ONLY to emphasize the importance of the upward motion in preparation for the actual serve, which as you shared, is in fact, forward/outward in nature.



I enjoy your work. Keep it up.



Dave Porter

[johnyandell]

Thanks!

[customsports]

Thank you John for an informed discussion presenting the "both up and down" points of view supported by clips of the best professionals. Serving is by far the most important stroke in tennis and probably the least understood. I have had this debate going with several club players for years now, and your article supports our understanding and methods for teaching the mechanics of serving. We teach that a good serve requires 80% upward and 20% forward energy, with the racket face at a slight tilt at impact, similar to the racket face tilt and upward motion of topspin ground strokes. By the way, great timing to this topic after watching John Isner consistently pound 135 mph- plus serves to clinch the Miami Open.

[johnyandell]

We can see the string depression and that isn't a factor. You can see the ball clearly come off the strings with a slight downward angle. Isner has more downward tilt for sure. Lauren? Never filmed her. But it's a good question. One key to the amount of downward angle is the ball position--the more in front, the more angle. Look at the clip of Nadal in this thread.

[aanthony]

What about the string depression at contact? a closer look might reveal less downward angle at contact. John Isner is almost 7 feet tall. My understanding of the serve says that he can hit down from the baseline. what about Lauren Davis?

[stotty]

So interesting because Nadal's contact is back partially over his head and his arm tilt is much less.

Yep...that's why dug out the clip. I was convinced the ball might travel slightly up as consequence of less tilt. I was wrong. When you consider the mechanics of the kick serve, with the racket strings brushing up the ball, albeit left to right, it seems logical the ball would go up a fraction.