Why does a swing volley feel "heavier" than a groundstroke?

[maverick1]

(This is a technique question. Not sure I chose the right forum)

There are these slow floaters that I can either volley from 10 feet inside the baseline or let them bounce and come down to a comfortable height well behind the baseline. It seems clear to me that former is the way to go if I am to improve as a player. A slow floater from the opponent should give me the advantage on the point, and that is not going to happen if I hit from well behind the baseline generating all the pace in the shot myself.

I believe the shot is called a swing volley. The problem is that when I try to hit them flat and with placement, my error rate is like 50%, even though I try and take very controlled swings. All I can do with consistency is a slow volley without placement, but this is worse than hitting a solid groundstroke from way back.

I am wondering if anyone has written an analysis of why the taking the ball in the air is so much different from hitting a ground shot. The main difference I feel is the "heaviness" on the racket, and as a result, even a small mishit seems to twist the racket and send ball in a totally different direction with a lot less pace than a clean hit would.

So, What is the mystery behind this extreme difference in the nature of volley and groundstrokes?

From what I have seen on this website, "Heavy" is usually associated with topspin , but I doubt that is the case with swing volleys, because if anything, the bounce adds more topspin to the ball.

Is it because the ball is coming down at you?

Could it be the (deceptive) pace? May be the bounce slows the ball so much that a slow volley is still faster than a fast groundshot by the time of contact?

I think understanding this question will help me improve my swing volley.

[EricMatuszewski]

Maverick,

The friction of the court takes alot of speed off of the ball. "Heavyness" is a combination of speed and spin.

The important spin and speed values to consider are the ones taken when you're actually contacting the ball.

The feedback you get from hitting a ball moving 50mph near the net with 1000 rpm's on it is going to feel "heavier" than if you try to contact the same shot after it bounces back at the baseline.

This is because, by the time the ball gets back to you on the baseline, air resistance has taken off alot of speed and spin even before the ball hits the court. The court friction wipes out another portion of the speed, but then puts some spin back on (still probably not enough to equal what was on it when it left your opponents racket).

In short, I think your'e on the right track.

[josef]

Maverick,

The friction of the court takes alot of speed off of the ball. "Heavyness" is a combination of speed and spin.

The important spin and speed values to consider are the ones taken when you're actually contacting the ball.

The feedback you get from hitting a ball moving 50mph near the net with 1000 rpm's on it is going to feel "heavier" than if you try to contact the same shot after it bounces back at the baseline.

This is because, by the time the ball gets back to you on the baseline, air resistance has taken off alot of speed and spin even before the ball hits the court. The court friction wipes out another portion of the speed, but then puts some spin back on (still probably not enough to equal what was on it when it left your opponents racket).

In short, I think your'e on the right track.

The bounce slows the ball down and puts alot of topspin on the ball.
Even slice balls with 2000 rpm underspin will have topspin of around 1000 after the bounce.
Thats from a very good research project :

http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Project/uscourt-01.html

"In the case of balls that approached the bounce with topspin, the results were quite similar for both the men and the women. In both cases the bounce added over 2000rpm of topspin to the shot. This included balls hit to players including Pete Sampras, Andre Agassi, Michael Chang, Venus Williams, Anna Kournikova, and Martina Hingis. For the men, 31 incidents averaged 1324rpm before the bounce, and 3355rpm after the bounce and before the hit. For the women, 21 incidents had an average spin of 995rpm before the bounce and 3129rpm after the bounce.

The data also showed that on average, the amount of topspin on the ball after the bounce was actually much greater than that generated by the players themselves. We noted above that only Sergi Bruguera's forehand was hit with topspin in excess of 3000rpm, with the majority of players hitting far less average spin.

Our ball bounce data showed that, for the men, the average spin rate of 3355rpm after the bounce and before the hit was slightly faster than Bruguera's average forehand. Although the players were hitting a ball spinning over 3000rpm after the bounce, the actual spin they generated on their own outgoing shots was on average less than half than the oncoming spin, an average of 1619rpm.

Men: Oncoming Balls with Topspin Before Bounce
Number of Incidents 31
Avg Topspin Pre Bounce Avg Topspin After Bounce Avg Topspin On Hit

1324rpm 3355rpm 1619rpm


Average Topspin Gained After Bounce: 2031
Average Topspin Lost After Hit: 736

For the women, the ball after the bounce was spinning at an average rate 3129rpm before the hit. The average spin the women players generated after hitting this ball an average of 1128rpm.

Women: Oncoming Balls with Topspin Before Bounce

Number of Incidents 21
Avg Topspin Pre Bounce Avg Topspin After Bounce Avg Topspin On Hit

995rpm 3129rpm 1128rpm


Average Topspin Gained After Bounce: 2134 "

[davehagler]

try this on your swing volleys

I think you got great advice from the previous posters as to the "why" but here is some "how to" for you to try - because from your post I sense that you not only want to understand the difference in "feeling" you want to be able to hit better shots. Your contact point on your swing volley should be towards the upper end or perhaps even slightly above your "strike zone - power zone" on your groundies. Experiment a bit and find where you hit it best. If you hit through the ball and hit it with topspin you will find you have better control than if you try to hit it flat. Really hit through it (finish your swing) and try to move through the shot a bit and see what happens. Please let me know if this helps.

Dave

[johnyandell]

Eric is correct except that the spin values are actually higher after the bounce than after the hit. But the speed differential is huge.

[EricMatuszewski]

post bounce spin is greater than post contact spin... Wow, you learn something new every day. Thanks guys for the heads up.

I suppose the only way a post hit spin could be greater than post bounce spin is in the instance of a heavily topspun lob.

angle of impact to the court as well as speed of impact would also seem to influence post bounce spin. A shallower angle of approach would give more spin post bounce as well as a higher speed of approach.

It's amazing how many variables factor in to spin.

[johnyandell]

Here's some groundstroke data from one of the Heavy Ball articles:


Number of Incidents 31
Avg RPM Before Bounce 1324rpm
Avg RPM After Bounce 3355rpm
Avg RPM Out Going Hit 1619rpm


That's from the Open a few years ago though, so the numbers are probably up.

On the serves it's even higher, 5000 rpm off the court. Nadal and occasionally other players are matching the spin going out on some groundstrokes though.
Topspin lobs could approach that.

[maverick1]

Interesting. The exact amount of topspin added by the bounce is quite a revelation to me. So, the bounce adds 2000 rpms of topspin and takes away about 30% of the speed.

If I am taking a ball in the air, I should prepare for the feel of a faster ball with greater underspin relative to what the same ball would be like after the bounce. Although this seems a bit too technical to use, it agrees well with my experience. The feeling of heaviness must be due to the speed; the underspin explains why I feel like I have hit up a lot more on the swing volley than on a groundstroke.

[johnyandell]

The ball is coming towards you with topspin.