Interactive Forum: Hand and Forearm Motion

[johnyandell]

Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are at the opposite end of the grip spectrum, as well as styles of play.

But what do their forehands have in common?

Take a look at the hand and forearm motion in these two animations, as well as the frame by frame movies below.

See what you discover, and tell us what you think!

Federer



Nadal

[johnyandell]

Hand and Forearm Movement Click Through Movies

Federer




Nadal

[maverick1]

I can't see the movies.
The first post has two white rectangles under the players' names, and the second post has black rectangles with Quicktime logo and a "?".

[gzhpcu]

The first thing that comes to my mind is that at the bottom of the loop, both use the forearm/wrist stretch-shorten cycle to help whip the racket forward faster.

P.S. Maverick1, if you just enter the forum and don't login beforehand, you see what you saw. You must login first.

[evikshin]

The most obvious thing to me is that both utilize near straight hitting arms. Its not too surprising that Federer does that, given his conservative grip, but I'm tearing out my hair just trying to figure out how the f___ Nadal is able to do it using an extreme semi-western.

[shootermcmarc0]

In these particular clips, it seems like Federer hits with better extension than Nadal. Since Nadal finishes over his head his racquet path is more vertical whereas Roger's finish is across his body towards his waist. In terms of forearm motion, I think that Roger has that natural pronation, nothing added extra (maybe because of the height of the ball?). Maybe if it was a lower ball we would see a little more supination before he makes contact and more pronation afterwards. With Rafa its hard to tell because the extreme grip makes it seem like he has a lot of added forearm movement.

[EricMatuszewski]

Hi everyone,

In response to the mega thread (52 posts, over 1600 views) in the biomechanics section, John asked me to select some clips to illustrate the movements Phil and I discussed. I'm really interested in what you all out there have to say about this, so I don't want to share my thoughts on this too much until it's been discussed thouroughly by everyone else. I'll just offer some ideas on what to look at.

Above are the clips of Fed and Nadal.

They were chosen because you can easily toggle (go back and forth using your right and left arrow keys) between two frames on each clip to view the wrist and forearm actions.

For both players, the "toggle" points (where you can see the inertial lag and stretch in the flexors and pronators) happens 4 frames before the post contact frame.


1) Go to the "frame by frame" clips

2) select a player using a right click on the clip.

3) Toggle to the frame (using arrow keys) where the ball has just left the racket.

4) Go back 4 frames. Look at the hand and racket.

5) Go forward 1frame. Look at what the hand and racket just did.

6) "toggle" between the two frames to get a visual of the movement.

7) Post what you see, why your think this happens, and what effect you think this has on the spin/speed of the shot.

Also. one other thing to look at.

1) go to the Fed clip.

2) toggle to one frame before contact.

3) toggle back one frame (two frames pre contact). then back and forth.

4) look at the racket tip notice how far it's moved thru space compared to the hand. look at the angle of the racket shaft related to the forearm and how it changes over the two frames.

5) why does this happen?, what caused this?, Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Do you think it's intentional or accidental?

Looking forward to your comments.

Eric

[EricMatuszewski]

Here are the stills.

Just in case you'd rather just look at the stills here they are.

I did the Nadal stills two frames apart (it's easier to see motion over a longer time interval).

[EricMatuszewski]

Here are the fed frames for the second part.

[shootermcmarc0]

Eric, to be honest I feel that that particular part of their swing happens naturally, so I feel that they do it unintentionally. What we see there is just the wrist laying back, ready to begin the forward swing. Maybe the cause of that particular motion is that the arm changes direction very quickly (transitioning from the prep to forward swing) and the racquet simply lags behind. I think if you have a fast swing speed like these guys do, it will happen on its own.

[johnyandell]

I think it's very interesting because not enough attention is paid to that second frame.
There is still widespread emphasis and belief in the closed or partially closed face--which occurs no doubt, but the relation to the hitting arm position is less well understood.

Another question: do you think this happens "naturally"? If so for Fed and Rafa, what about the rest of us?

[cyberhound]

Wrist and arm action

This arm action utilize's the stretch shortening cycle and is actually coached. There's a drill to help one develop the feel for it. Henin-Hardenne uses it on the womens;s side. On the men's side Federer, Rafa, Roddick, Safin, and all the heavy forehand hitters use it.

It happens naturally but you have to set up intentionally, to allow it to happen. I just wrote a long post explaining how to do it but the computer froze as I was posting it. I'm too frustrated right now to try it again till I see if this posts. But briefly--neutral wrist, relaxed arm at the top of the backswing. Racquet head in line with ball. Let gravity drop it to ball level or slightly below. Racquet still pointing to chest side fence and wrist relaxed. Open left hip. arm will supinate and wrist will ulnar deviate and flex starting stretch shorting cycle.. Stretch will then reverse generating tremedous racquet head speed. Works for anybody.

I/ve been hitting my forehand this way for about a year and it makes a tremdous difference in power and spin.

Heath Waters of www.virtualtennisacademy.com coaches this technique and calls it the millenium forehand.

[evikshin]

I'd agree with Shooter on this...I think the lag, or the sudden laying back of the hand as the butt cap of the racket is brought forward, is a natural motion that occurs if you are in the habit of making contact with the wrist laid back, and if you understand correctly that the forehand is not a wrist snap.

Also, the back swing may play a role. I noticed that many women (like Sharapova and Hingis) have what I call an "early wrist cock," that is, they lay their wrist backs at the start of the back swing. The wrist cock is maintained well into impact with the ball. On the other hand, it would appear that players like Federer have less wrist cock (though the wrist is still slightly laid back and not flopping around) on the backswing. So, when Fed sudden changes directions with his hand, the degree of wrist cock will go from mild to severe.

I've always "felt" that I had a "early wrist cock" forehand, but in fact what happens in my case (as seen on camera) is I lay the wrist back all the way at the beginning of the backswing, but on upon the completion of the backswing, the wrist cock decreases, and then increases sharply as I rapidly bring my palm through the hitting zone.

I tried teaching my friend how to hit a mild-moderate semi western forehand. He was actually doing the opposite--he started off with a good degree of wrist cock on the backswing (trying to mimic me), but then on the foreswing he ends up slapping at the ball with his wrist. He just needs to change his mindset--that the forehand is not a slap, rather its more of a forceful, thrust, or push with the palm. Once he got the mindset, it was like night and day.

Oh, and I might add, when I was learning the forehand, I had to train myself to forcefully push my palm when my arm was in the double bend ready position. When I mastered this, I was able to hit with any backswing, provided that I get to the position. Certain backswings made it harder (E.G. Pete Sampras' elbow lead backswing). That is why I am of the opinion that the backswing is merely for style, and is useless, provided you have a mastery of the foreswing fundamentals. Yet, it still remains a mystery to me how anyone can accomplish this with a straight hitting arm.

Evikshin.

[cyberhound]

wrist and arm action

For what its worth. The following is quoted from the Ask Roger section of Roger Federer's web site.

Question:
Quoted: "He hits many times with lots of wrist action, and contact point far in front, a unique technique in the tour". Was this taught or just your personal hitting style?
Roger's Answer:
It’s my personal hitting style; this is how my game evolved. There is no secret behind it. I always had a fast wrist, which helps.

Federer is clearly implying that he intentionally uses wrist snap.

[evikshin]

Federer's wrist does indeed "snap" or release, but it occurs after the ball has left the racket. A way to think about it is to start with the wrist laid back, and end with the wrist "snapped," or released on the follow through, but making sure contact is made with a laid back wrist. The big danger is thinking that the wrist is snapping through impact (that is, snapping before and after contact with the ball), which no successful pro in the history of the game does.