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**don_budge** · 03-01-2018, 05:15 AM

One Match of Interest...Dominic Thiem versus Denis "The Menace" Shapovalov

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-m3q-Xi-Eo

Two one-handed backhands. Unfortunately neither player seems to have an inkling how to mix it up. It appears to me in many of Roger Federer's matches he uses his backhand tactically as well at to force the issue. It seems that fifty percent of his backhands are played with slice. I don't think either of these players have a very good slice backhand. Therefore their tactical choices are limited.

Thiem insists on driving everything and he doesn't investigate his opponent short and wide. The two hand backhand is used so often in pro tennis because of it's advantage on high balls that have been artificially enhanced due to court surface technology and the monkeying around with the strings not to mention the big racquets and modern technique.

Despite the hype about the full court game of Shapovalov he is still wet behind the ears on the approach game and volley. Thiem's volley technique is also very suspect. He shows this in the warm up.

But this match of any in the two tournaments that I have started threads on were the only one of any interest to me. Some great backcourt play by both players. Thiem appears to have improved his forehand. Both serve motions are fine but will either propel the player to the net. Speed up the courts braintrust. Let's see who adapts.

**stotty** · 03-02-2018, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by don_budge View Post

One Match of Interest...Dominic Thiem versus Denis "The Menace" Shapovalov

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-m3q-Xi-Eo

Two one-handed backhands. Unfortunately neither player seems to have an inkling how to mix it up. It appears to me in many of Roger Federer's matches he uses his backhand tactically as well at to force the issue. It seems that fifty percent of his backhands are played with slice. I don't think either of these players have a very good slice backhand. Therefore their tactical choices are limited.

Thiem insists on driving everything and he doesn't investigate his opponent short and wide. The two hand backhand is used so often in pro tennis because of it's advantage on high balls that have been artificially enhanced due to court surface technology and the monkeying around with the strings not to mention the big racquets and modern technique.

Despite the hype about the full court game of Shapovalov he is still wet behind the ears on the approach game and volley. Thiem's volley technique is also very suspect. He shows this in the warm up.

But this match of any in the two tournaments that I have started threads on were the only one of any interest to me. Some great backcourt play by both players. Thiem appears to have improved his forehand. Both serve motions are fine but will either propel the player to the net. Speed up the courts braintrust. Let's see who adapts.

I haven't seen any thing of this tournament but it seems the old guard are still kicking ass. The diplodocus took care of Thiem I see...and Anderson snuffed out Cheung. Zverez still survives I notice.

Hmm....are the next generation ever going to arrive?

**gzhpcu** · 03-02-2018, 03:54 AM

Stotty. I use this:

**don_budge** · 03-02-2018, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by stotty View Post

I haven't seen any thing of this tournament but it seems the old guard are still kicking ass. The diplodocus took care of Thiem I see...and Anderson snuffed out Cheung. Zverez still survives I notice.

Hmm....are the next generation ever going to arrive?

Yes...it has been something of a snoozer. Jared Donaldson through to the semis which makes three "Next Generation" players. Dominic Thiem and Alexander Zverev are actually the poster boys of this illustrious group. Oops...I forgot Thiem lost to Del Potro. It's two "Next Generation" against two veterans.

I watched Thiem in two matches. He beat Shapovalov straight sets in the second round and then he lost to Del Potro in the next. Del Potro was hitting huge forehands and Thiem rarely hits anything out of the ordinary. He has big shots but very little variation of shot. He looked to play virtually the same way against the left handed hot shot Canadian as he did against the lurking Argentinean.

I was hoping to catch some more of Chung to see why so many are saying that he is the "Next". Alexander Zverev had that title or still has it. Maybe depending on how he does against Del Potro next round. What about Jared Donaldson? I saw him lose to Shapovalov last week and wasn't so impressed but here his is off of a straight set win over Feliciano Lopez. Of the two semis Del Potro and Zverev are a bit more interesting but not worth staying up late to watch.

Is that free tennis that gzhpcu is using? Have to check it out.

**stotty** · 03-02-2018, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by gzhpcu View Post

Stotty. I use this:

Oddly enough I used to subscribe but then let it lapse because British Eurosport were covering most events. I signed up again today for TennisTV because Eurosport seemed to have lessened their coverage of tennis.

**tennis_chiro** · 03-02-2018, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by stotty View Post

Oddly enough I used to subscribe but then let it lapse because British Eurosport were covering most events. I signed up again today for TennisTV because Eurosport seemed to have lessened their coverage of tennis.

If you signed up for TennisTV, then you can go back and look at the last week of matches in the "500" tournaments. Anderson played very well against Chung and served great. The only thing that makes me think twice about picking Chung as the next number one is his reluctance to be aggressive. At the top ten level (where Anderson is now), you have to avail yourself of every opportunity and attack on every short ball and even some of the neutral ones. When he is forced to do that, he appears to me to have the goods, but he is prone to falling back into being reactive and that doesn't work, especially with his serve.

don

**stotty** · 03-02-2018, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post

If you signed up for TennisTV, then you can go back and look at the last week of matches in the "500" tournaments. Anderson played very well against Chung and served great. The only thing that makes me think twice about picking Chung as the next number one is his reluctance to be aggressive. At the top ten level (where Anderson is now), you have to avail yourself of every opportunity and attack on every short ball and even some of the neutral ones. When he is forced to do that, he appears to me to have the goods, but he is prone to falling back into being reactive and that doesn't work, especially with his serve.

don

Strange because when he beat Novak he was ultra aggressive and traded equally if not more heavily than Novak. Novak didn't seem to be able to capitalise on Chung's, at times, weak serve. I didn't have Chung down as being someone who might retreat into a more passive style of play. I shall have to take a look at that match if I can access it on TennisTV as you say.

When you look the tour at the new line of players emerging, most of them play similar to Novak, often using the same or very similar patterns of play. I guess he is a simple model to emulate in some ways.

I still think Zverez will find his way to the top. His record in slams is poor but I feel sure he will rectify that soon.

**don_budge** · 03-02-2018, 01:20 PM

Djokovic was far from 100% when he played Chung so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that match. Look at his results over the past year. The jury is still out on him. There are about 10 or 15 players that are sort of herded together.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/playe...ivity?year=all

As for Zverev...the jury is still out on him too. But we are going to get some more evidence real quick. Like in about six or seven hours when he tees it up with Juan Martin Del Potro...or rather diplodocus rex as stotty likes to call him.

Most of these guys are still in process but I don't see any of them that looks like they are ready to take the lead. Perhaps Zverev...if he can get that deer in the headlights look off of him. But I question his physique too. Here is another big tall guy that is jerking himself around from side to side. I predict he won't have the staying power to dominate for any length of time. Chung looks a bit tougher physically but his game lacks any kind of imagination and he is just another grinder when it comes down to it. Denis Shapovalov is really immature...tennis wise. But he has potential.

It's a crop of one trick ponies basically. More of the same. It would be fun to see the tour speed it up and lower the bounce. Send them all back for training. The future is uncertain except for one fact. Roger Federer will not last forever and what you see is what you get. Del Potro and Zverev have a limited amount of interesting tennis in them. No surprises and little imagination. The other half here is Jared Donaldson and Kevin Anderson. Any interest there? So the tour looks to be headed into a dead end. None of it has any kind of sex appeal...some pizzazz. Just a bunch of humdrum backcourt play with the occasional drop shot thrown in for good measure. I want to be wrong...but I am pretty that I am not.

There simply isn't a shred of style in the game.

**don_budge** · 03-02-2018, 01:23 PM

This is the way to watch a Kevin Anderson versus Hyeon Chung match. An eleven minute highlight video. I dare you to stick it out from beginning to end for the whole thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8M-Z95C7Ko

**stotty** · 03-02-2018, 01:39 PM

I found the Chung/Anderson match on TennisTv but the video isn't working. Just my luck. I watched some YouTube highlights instead.

You have to hand it to Anderson, he played superbly. He was aggressive and kept Chung pinned back much of the time. Chung was passive and hit way too much down the middle in the first set from what I saw. In the second set, from the highlights at least, Chung did seem more aggressive. His serve is a handicap at that level and he is going to have to address it if he is make it to the very top.

He has been working on it though:

2016 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-gu22xAYB8

2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftPWhoam9fk

**don_budge** · 03-02-2018, 11:56 PM

Here we go...every picture tells a story. So said that rock and roll legend Rod Stewart. Old school rock. They don't make 'em like that anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmyGa29zIqk

So here's the picture sports fans...tennis fans. It don't look good. In fact it is downright horrible and I am not in the mood to mince words. Here is the "Golden Boy" of the ATP's "Next Generation" crop and in a word...he sucked.

Originally posted by don_budge View Post

As for Zverev...the jury is still out on him too. But we are going to get some more evidence real quick. Like in about six or seven hours when he tees it up with Juan Martin Del Potro...or rather diplodocus rex as stotty likes to call him.

Most of these guys are still in process but I don't see any of them that looks like they are ready to take the lead. Perhaps Zverev...if he can get that deer in the headlights look off of him. But I question his physique too. Here is another big tall guy that is jerking himself around from side to side. I predict he won't have the staying power to dominate for any length of time.

There simply isn't a shred of style in the game.

No sooner than I say it...it happens. I was looking at him as he was warming up. Looking at the long spindly legs. Wondering to myself...how can he possibly think he is going to last so many years on the tour with those legs trying to stay low to the ground. Just imagine if the courts were speeded up and he...oh never mind.

Here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXFrFqR67aU

Around the third game Zverev appears to tweek his knee then a tape appears wrapped around it. He never gets into the match. To his credit he stay out on the court and guts it out by he is not very happy. As Del Potro is serving out the first set Zverev throws his racquet to the ground...he throws it hard. At about 2-1 in the second he smashes it. That isn't a very good example to be sending to the next generation...after the "Next Generation".

Now everyone knows that don_budge is no choir boy but smashing racquets is a no-no message to be sending to the boys and girls and it is just boorish behaviour in general. Once and a while...okay. But it seems to me every time that I see young Alexander in a losing situation he is smashing. Not overheads either. The smashing of racquets is another symptom of what I have been suggesting about him. He's under pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I

We all know what pressure is. It can tear a family in two. It can bring buildings down...think WTC 7 if you will. But the kid is a kid. He wasn't designed for this kind of scrutiny at such a tender age. Who can prepare for this psychologically? Del Potro made him wish his mother never had him. If you feel that way about losing a tennis match it is going to be tough to bounce back time and time again which is what one has to do. Now every loss becomes a major setback and it makes the next tournament that much more important and then you are spiralling out of control. Where's the bottom you ask yourself.

Now he may be able to right the ship. He may be able to get the nose up...the chin up. But I have my doubts. First of all it is the technique...which secondly dictates the tactics. Throw in the fragile eggshell mind and you have a recipe for spinning your wheels.

Juan Martin Del Potro (Deplodocus Rex) versus Kevin Anderson? Any questions? Two big guys slugging it out from the backcourt. Need I say more?

**gsheiner** · 03-03-2018, 01:05 PM

Stotty posted about the Chung serve and how he's changed it . To my amateur eye, his lower body motion was superior in 2016 and is far more restricted today. I can't imagine he has more power with his new motion ( which has little power as I saw first hand at Del ray ) . I wonder why he went away from the big hip lean into the court?

"-He has been working on it though:

2016 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-gu22xAYB8

2017 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftPWhoam9fk

**don_budge** · 03-04-2018, 02:10 AM

The Ends Justify the Means...Machiavelli "The Little Prince"

Mischa Zverev #54, David Ferrer #39, Dominic Thiem #6, Alexander Zverev #5 and Kevin Anderson #8...this was the path to the title. Not exactly a cake walk but a very good measure for Juan Martin Del Potro to gage his level of play. But we can see by the rankings of his last three opponents how diluted the field has become.

Bill Tilden wrote in his wonderful book called "How to Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to technique and tactics" a Part Three entitled "Match Play Tactics and Tennis Psychology". In Part Three is a chapter called "Maintaining Pressure on Your Opponent". Juan Martin Del Potro is playing textbook Bill Tilden tactics. Del Potro tactics have become an interesting and subtle mix of clever patience and ruthless lashing. On the backhand Del Potro has undergone a complete metamorphasis. Due to injury Juan is hitting at least seventy-five percent one handed backhands.

That slice is becoming such a subtle weapon. He varies the depth, trajectory and speed with subtle changes of the path of his swing and the opening and closing of the racquet face. While a slice backhand is not going to win outright frequently Juan has come to a excellent understanding of how to maintain pressure on his opponent by doing two distinct things with the said slice. Generally he is slicing predominately crosscourt into a predominately two handed backhand. The normal replay from the two-handed backhand is going to be crosscourt as there is something about the down the line play that makes it less preferable statistically speaking. It is a bit of a gamble to go aggressive down the line. Many times if you keep the ball a combination of low enough and wide enough and and getting the spin to skid the ball off of the court surface the two handed player is forced to start playing "your" game and he answers with a slice. Now you have him playing your game and it becomes a matter of who has the most patience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2wZsVnCxhI

By playing this cat and mouse waiting game with his opponent Juan is setting up his opponent for his real intention which is the get the ball on his forehand. Watch after he slices the ball...he recovers a good meter to the left of centre court more or less daring his opponent to go at his monster forehand. A monster forehand it is. While the obvious aspect of his forehand is the sheer speed but just as importantly he is hitting a heavy ball...a very heavy ball. If you misshit one of these sledgehammer shots your racquet is going to wobble in your hands and we all know what happens then. But once Del Potro has the ball on his forehand he is surely going to dictate the point to its conclusion.

Back to the backhand. Juan also knows that a player like Alexander Zverev and virtually all of the modern day two handed backhands are weak in the forecourt so he draws them in when the opportunity presents itself. If he can draw his opponent in on a ball where they are reaching and not setting up they generally hit rather indecisive approach shots which sets him up for the pass. I was really impressed that against Zverev he was throwing in well disguised drop shots. A new wrinkle to his new wrinkle.

Maintaining pressure is accomplished in a variety of ways. Unfortunately in modern tennis maintaining pressure is generally accomplished with an emphasis on speed and heavy spin. But in reality for all tennis players and this goes for the less than professional even more pressure is maintained by one opponent controlling the other opponent with their tactics which are limited or unlimited by a players technique. Juan has really made a nice adjustment in the middle of his career to switch not only his technique to due an injury but he has also grasped a completely new set of tactics due to his new technique. Technique is not the end in itself but it is the means to the ends. And who was it that said "the ends justify the means"? Machiavelli?

Who is the ultimate Machiavelli on the tennis court? Wouldn't that be Roger Federer? Juan Martin Del Potro has borrowed a page or two out of the Living Proofs book which was dictated to him by none other than William Tilden.

**arturohernandez** · 03-05-2018, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by don_budge View Post

The Ends Justify the Means...Machiavelli "The Little Prince"

Bill Tilden wrote in his wonderful book called "How to Play Better Tennis...a complete guide to technique and tactics" a Part Three entitled "Match Play Tactics and Tennis Psychology". In Part Three is a chapter called "Maintaining Pressure on Your Opponent". Juan Martin Del Potro is playing textbook Bill Tilden tactics. Del Potro tactics have become an interesting and subtle mix of clever patience and ruthless lashing. On the backhand Del Potro has undergone a complete metamorphasis. Due to injury Juan is hitting at least seventy-five percent one handed backhands.

That slice is becoming such a subtle weapon. He varies the depth, trajectory and speed with subtle changes of the path of his swing and the opening and closing of the racquet face. While a slice backhand is not going to win outright frequently Juan has come to a excellent understanding of how to maintain pressure on his opponent by doing two distinct things with the said slice. Generally he is slicing predominately crosscourt into a predominately two handed backhand. The normal replay from the two-handed backhand is going to be crosscourt as there is something about the down the line play that makes it less preferable statistically speaking. It is a bit of a gamble to go aggressive down the line. Many times if you keep the ball a combination of low enough and wide enough and and getting the spin to skid the ball off of the court surface the two handed player is forced to start playing "your" game and he answers with a slice. Now you have him playing your game and it becomes a matter of who has the most patience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2wZsVnCxhI

Back to the backhand. Juan also knows that a player like Alexander Zverev and virtually all of the modern day two handed backhands are weak in the forecourt so he draws them in when the opportunity presents itself. If he can draw his opponent in on a ball where they are reaching and not setting up they generally hit rather indecisive approach shots which sets him up for the pass. I was really impressed that against Zverev he was throwing in well disguised drop shots. A new wrinkle to his new wrinkle.

l:

I was watching these highlights and wondered out loud why Del Potro does not just switch to a one handed topspin backhand. Why not just try and mix in a few here and there? I mean he is certainly strong enough and if he does it like Tsonga only out of desperation he might just start to build confidence.

Yes, the slice is the shot par excellence to defeat the modern game. It's just so effective and everyone is left having to try and do something.

Even Rafa used it against Djokovic when he finally turned the tables.

I was struck by something else as well.

Almost everyone leaves chances to close in on the net.

I was watching Delpo against Anderson and was shocked at how often I thought come in only to watch the players let another ball land in the court.

Delpo came in 6 times and won 4 points. Anderson came in twice and one once.

I mean at those percentages why not come in a little more. I just don't get it.

I got tired of this and rewatched Fed Seppi at Rotterdam

Fed comes in more times in the highlights than Anderson Delpo come in combined in their entire match.

https://youtu.be/mySCEYGxsaU

Even there you can see the answer to the slice backhand. Steffi did the same thing to everyone before and then Serena found a solution.

Serena came in so much that Steffi was forced to hit a couple of topspin passing shots.

Are you seriously going to tell me that all these pro men cannot do to Del potro what Serena did in 1999?

You cannot be serious!

https://youtu.be/YJE4vCj155o

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