Tennis Researchers of the world...

[shootermcmarc0]

So how do we develop a good cartwheel?

[josef]

Hello

A question for Eric :

Why did you take pictures before and not at contact ? Is the position at contact not more important because the shock of ball impact puts additional stress on the shoulder ?

Another player who compromises the shoulder line is Serena Williams.

A remark to Braden :
I believe Vic Braden has a pretty realistic picture, who reads his books and what skill level and physical shape his average reader has. For the vast majority of tennis players these extreme body positions ala Safins second serve are no realistic goals.
If you look at alot recreational players and even some advanced players who are trying to hit a extrem kick/twist serve, it hurts just looking. They hurt their backs,elbows,shoulders and wrists.
In some way i have alot of respect for Bradens decision to go with a contact point at the right side of the head.

Also i agree that for pro players the kick serve is no high risk shot.

A question for John :

In the light of this discussion : What do you think about the key pictures of serve in your book Visual Tennis page 143 and 147 ? ( no shoulder over shoulder rotation and the hitting arm pretty straight up maybe 80 degrees to shoulders ).

And more general if you make a new book like visual tennis would you again use models, who get into position and hold them or would you take stills from actual real strokes ?

I have know and appreciate your online work before i bought the book and was very surprised that you used no stills from actual strokes.

Best wishes from Germany

Josef

[EricMatuszewski]

Josef,

You asked a thoughtfull question, thank you for reading and responding.

Quote: "Why did you take pictures before and not at contact ? Is the position at contact not more important because the shock of ball impact puts additional stress on the shoulder ?"

Yes, there is a reason for showing these frames as opposed to contact, however it's a rather technical one. Sorry for the jargon but here it goes.

I believe that it is at approximatelly this moment in the stroke sequence that the SITS (suprispinatus, Infraspinatus, teres minor and subscapularis ) muscles are under their greatest load (they have been stretched, and they are in the process of rebounding).

If we could look at the players shoulder with the skin taken away at this moment and just see muscle, tendon, and bone, we would see the SITS muscles stretched and twisted, spanning the space between the scapula and the head of the humerus, behaving somewhat like a twisted up towel that your trying to "wring out".

A pinch of one of the SITS muscles by a bone (the acromion of the scapula) would be most devastating at this moment.

Imagine trying to cut a piece of heavy rope.

You and your freind each hold one end and let the rope have some slack and you try to cut it with a knife... It will take a while.

Now try again, but ...

Imagine you use that rope to tow something (a waterskier for instance) from your speedboat. The rope is under a tension, just like the SITS muscles at the "drop" moment. It will take much less effort to cut that rope now.

Likewise, it will take much less effort for that acromion to slice into one of those muscles (probably the subscapularis or the supraspinatus) at this moment of maximum tension as well.

By the time contact occurs, I don't believe those muscles have as much tension on them as they did at the bottom of the "drop".

However bad positioning at contact could cause further damage if the pinch is still happening at this moment. It would be like holding down the knife on the rope longer rather than just "tapping it" when it was it's most tense.

Thanks again for your thoughtfull question.

Are you a coach?

Best wishes,
Eric

[EricMatuszewski]

Excessive Abduction is the Focus

I just wanted to remind everyone that my focus on these Jpegs is not "cartwheeling" but instead the distance that the elbow gets above the "Danger Line" (excessive abduction).

Cartwheeling is just a way of dealing with this problem and still retaining a topspin component.

You can still hurt yourself even if you do use some cartwheeling (Look at Rafter, he cartwheels almost as much as Safin.

The difference is in his excessive abduction.

Also...

The back must be strong and flexible to support the cartweeling action as it requires "trunk lateral flexion" and hyperextension. Strength and flexibility training are a must for high level serving!

[gzhpcu]

On Tennisone, Vic Braden recently reviewed Roger Federer's topspin serve, concluding, once again, that a toss more to the left of the body results in the danger of rotator cuff injuries and that for that reason he will not teach it.

[josef]

Josef,

You asked a thoughtfull question, thank you for reading and responding.

Quote: "Why did you take pictures before and not at contact ? Is the position at contact not more important because the shock of ball impact puts additional stress on the shoulder ?"

Yes, there is a reason for showing these frames as opposed to contact, however it's a rather technical one. Sorry for the jargon but here it goes.

I believe that it is at approximatelly this moment in the stroke sequence that the SITS (suprispinatus, Infraspinatus, teres minor and subscapularis ) muscles are under their greatest load (they have been stretched, and they are in the process of rebounding).

If we could look at the players shoulder with the skin taken away at this moment and just see muscle, tendon, and bone, we would see the SITS muscles stretched and twisted, spanning the space between the scapula and the head of the humerus, behaving somewhat like a twisted up towel that your trying to "wring out".

A pinch of one of the SITS muscles by a bone (the acromion of the scapula) would be most devastating at this moment.

Imagine trying to cut a piece of heavy rope.

You and your freind each hold one end and let the rope have some slack and you try to cut it with a knife... It will take a while.

Now try again, but ...

Imagine you use that rope to tow something (a waterskier for instance) from your speedboat. The rope is under a tension, just like the SITS muscles at the "drop" moment. It will take much less effort to cut that rope now.

Likewise, it will take much less effort for that acromion to slice into one of those muscles (probably the subscapularis or the supraspinatus) at this moment of maximum tension as well.

By the time contact occurs, I don't believe those muscles have as much tension on them as they did at the bottom of the "drop".

However bad positioning at contact could cause further damage if the pinch is still happening at this moment. It would be like holding down the knife on the rope longer rather than just "tapping it" when it was it's most tense.

Thanks again for your thoughtfull question.

Are you a coach?

Best wishes,
Eric

Thanks for the explanation. Good idea to translate biomechanic reasons in an example. It makes sense to look at the position at maximum strech.

Yes i am trying to be a coach and i was taught and trained by DTB, but i still have a lot to learn.
Btw did you read the german text book you were referring to on wrist action in german or is there a english translation available ? (just courious)

To Phil

Can you help me out with the location of the vic braden piece on the serve on T1 ?
I can find the forhand and backhand video but the serve analysis is not there (not under serve section and search function didnt work neither)
I saw it when it was released though.

[gzhpcu]

Josef,
You have to look under "video tips", not under "serve". It is about the tenth or eleventh entry from the top.

[EricMatuszewski]

Josef,

There is an English translation titled "Tennis Course 1 " widely available in the US. It was originally published in German in 1995 and the English version was released in 2000.

It's one of the most informative books on tennis that I have (I have about 20 books on tennis specifically).

It goes into more depth on technique than any of the books I've seen commonly available in the US.

I particularly identify with Gohner's idea of "Functional Analysis" which is a way of trying to understand stroke production beyond the morphologic approach (looking at pictures) or the Biomechanic approach. Thinking in terms of Functional Analysis has made all the difference for me.

Both of the translated books I have from Germany are exceptionally well done, I also have "Competitive Tennis for Young Players" which is a joy to read.


Germany seems to really know what they're doing, suprising that they don't have more top players.

I spoke with Katherine Woerle (WTA player) and her brother Lothar, this year and they told me that German tennis is really dying out since the "Becker" days.

I think that the German federation still has the most analytical minds working for it, which will give them a slight advantage until the rest of the world catches up.

Sadly for them, you can have the best minds at work for you, but if your participation is down then your not going to produce players. We have a similar problem here in the US.

Best wishes on your coaching,
Eric

[gzhpcu]

The best book on technique I ever saw is an old one: "Fundamentals of tennis" by Stanley Plagenhoef". Came out in 1970, is a classic, and, I find, is still valid, with great insights.

[josef]

Josef,
You have to look under "video tips", not under "serve". It is about the tenth or eleventh entry from the top.

Vielen Dank,

Josef

[josef]

Josef,

There is an English translation titled "Tennis Course 1 " widely available in the US. It was originally published in German in 1995 and the English version was released in 2000.

It's one of the most informative books on tennis that I have (I have about 20 books on tennis specifically).

It goes into more depth on technique than any of the books I've seen commonly available in the US.

I particularly identify with Gohner's idea of "Functional Analysis" which is a way of trying to understand stroke production beyond the morphologic approach (looking at pictures) or the Biomechanic approach. Thinking in terms of Functional Analysis has made all the difference for me.

Both of the translated books I have from Germany are exceptionally well done, I also have "Competitive Tennis for Young Players" which is a joy to read.


Germany seems to really know what they're doing, suprising that they don't have more top players.

I spoke with Katherine Woerle (WTA player) and her brother Lothar, this year and they told me that German tennis is really dying out since the "Becker" days.

I think that the German federation still has the most analytical minds working for it, which will give them a slight advantage until the rest of the world catches up.

Sadly for them, you can have the best minds at work for you, but if your participation is down then your not going to produce players. We have a similar problem here in the US.

Best wishes on your coaching,
Eric

Hello Eric

I looked it up. It is the book that is officially used. But the real program you make in your education is very different from state to state. Every state in Germany has is own education system for tennis teachers and it varys alot.
Only the highest of the three stages (A,B;C) is directly tought by the DTB in Colonge. I have only the first stage.

Concerning the state of german tennis, i believe there is a big difference between men and women. There are alot of very good young male players.
On the female side it is pretty horrible.

Alot of german players are in their mid twenties when they appear on the tour. Just look up the college single rankings and the germans are pretty visible. D1 number 1 and 4 and D2 five germans in the top 20. In fact if you combine the top 20 D1 and D2 there are more germans than americans.
Maybe i made some mistakes in counting but when there is no state behind the city than i assumed the person is not from the US. In Naia the top player is german and three germans in the top 20.
if you want to check : http://www.collegetennisonline.com/v...nkingslist.asp
Thats a pretty impressive body count.
Benjamin Becker and Alexander Waskes also took the college route.
On the womens side its very ugly. Number 7 in D2 and number 37 D1 and some players in positions over 50.
Thats quite a difference.

[EricMatuszewski]

Wow Josef, that report on college tennis was amazing. I posted it as a quote in the "Notes on Tour" forum.

It's really worth talking about over there.

(I want to keep this thread from getting too far off the subject it started on.) I hate having to scroll thru "other stuff" to get the info I'm after.

Great work on that report!

Eric.


Phil,

I'm pretty sure I read that book in the library when I was in elementary school, It made tennis look amazing to me, very complicated and special.

Plagenhoefs work was so influential and groundbreaking that an award was named after him.

I'm trying to get a copy of it again for nostalgia sake, it's unfortunatelly out of print in the US.

[EricMatuszewski]

Just wanted to remind you all to vote in the poll above about Roddicks shoulder.

Now back to discussion...

[gzhpcu]

Eric,
You can find the book here:
Amazon

In respect to your poll, somebody voted that Roddick would injure his shoulder. It would be interesting to know why they thought that.

[stroke]

Phil,

I clicked on the wrong button on the pole vote, I meant to say Roddick would not injure his shoulder.