Interactive Forum December 2017: Cici Bellis Serve

[tennis_chiro]

McNamee is a great example. I believe he worked at Hopmann's camp in Florida while making that change. But that kind of a commitment is very rare and requires a long term commitment. He was not considered "successful" when he made that commitment. Cici is one of the highest ranked teenagers. Someone in her camp has to take the long view and she has to buy in to it. The serve is something she could work on intensively for a couple of months and get it to a point where she would still be able to compete. Then she could continue to work on it as she played. Her performance would probably suffer a little at first, but she wouldn't be giving up much.

don

[stotty]

Dr. Bruce Elliott, well known Australian biomechanist, conducted an interesting study on the female tennis serve. He presented it at an ITF conference. There were 3 study groups of high quality females based on age (1) Pre-puberty, age 10 & 11, 2) Puberty, age 14 & 15, 3) Pro, age18+). Elliott studied 1) Timing 2) Lower Limb Mechanics 3) Trunk Mechanics 4) Shoulder Mechanics 5) Arm Mechanics.

Some highlights:
1) Timing - Toss height & Trophy position - should reach trophy position when ball reaches zenith of toss. Young players toss too high, throwing off timing. GOOD TEACHING CUE - ball rises, body falls; ball falls, body rises.

2) Lower limb mechanics - a) establish leg drive early (esp. back leg) to promote hip over hip when they get stronger. b) Importance of back foot/back leg location. Proper foot position allows for later development. c) Ankle drive is important - get on balls of the feet.

3) Trunk mechanics -
a) Preparation phase - 1) Importance of rotating shoulders more than hips in backswing, better in younger group b) Establish shoulder tilt with tossing arm.
b) Propulsion Phase - 1) twist rotation is same thru age groups 2) Shoulder over shoulder increases with age. Pro's only group to blend shoulder over shoulder from ball toss height to impact.
c) Contact phase - 1) Younger girls tend to be more "square on" (twist axis) at contact, need more shoulder over shoulder (develops with age & strength). TOSS IS IMPORTANT, can be too far to right. 2) Don't emphasize "lateral tilt" too early (after puberty), can lead to injury. Lateral tilt occurs when trying to stay more sideways leading up to contact, tossing arm "tucks in" and shoulder/arm of approaches ball.

4) Shoulder mechanics - a) need leg drive up to pull racquet and arm down (external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR constant among age groups = 80* b) Internal shoulder rotation increases with age. Need to make contact on inside of hand (inward tilt of racquet vs. forearm).

5) Arm mechanics - a) elbow and wrist velocity increase with age. b) Constant 100* angle of body, shoulder, arm is IMPORTANT. If toss is too far right, you decrease angle and open too soon (too much twist axis); toss closer to hips.

3 types of movements of trunk axis -
1) Twist - shoulders rotate horizontally - same thru ages, females do well
2) Shoulder over shoulder - is the major difference between great vs. good servers; much better in males than females.
3) Extension/Flexion - wasn't used much in this study

Thanks for taking the time to post this...interesting.

I am doing a simple study at the moment involving 200 children of mixed gender and ages. All the children have to throw a tennis ball as far as they can. I have only recorded the throws of 32 children so far but already there is a significant difference between the boys and the girls. The girls are mostly very weak at throwing and cannot throw a ball nearly as far as the boys. In another few weeks I hope to have recorded the throws of all 200 children.

[don_budge]

I get that there is a lot skepticism about a pro making a major commitment to revamp something as critical as a serve. But it seems to me, as a naive fan, there are some examples of pros doing this. I think Paul McNamee, who won several majors in doubles back in the day, switched from a one-handed to two-handed backhand in the midst of his career. I seem to recall reading his first hand account (unless I'm thinking of someone else) and it took him almost a year to learn the new backhand and most peers thought he was completely crazy, but the rest is history as they say. More recently, it seems Rafa has made major revisions to his serve at different points (maybe these are tweaks compared to what Cici needs). Wozniacki is also serving considerably better this past year. Again maybe just small tweaks, though it would be good to hear what the experts on this thread think.

It isn't a big deal but everyone around her will make it a big deal. She's a tennis player at a very high level. What is so difficult in teaching a proper serve motion to a player of that caliber? We all teach lesser players this motion all the time. One of the big questions is about Cici. What about her attitude? It's a question of attitude first. Secondly...what about her coach? Why hasn't this been a priority?

Modern tennis is a bit whack these days. Modern women's tennis is really lacking in direction it seems to me although to be honest I have very little/no interest. Even though, as Ed Atkinson says, it's the same game but different clothes. I guess it is fair to say that very soon I will have very little/no interest in the men's game either barring some kind of miracle.

Interesting about McNamee...I never heard that about his backhand.

[arturohernandez]

Thanks for taking the time to post this...interesting.

I am doing a simple study at the moment involving 200 children of mixed gender and ages. All the children have to throw a tennis ball as far as they can. I have only recorded the throws of 32 children so far but already there is a significant difference between the boys and the girls. The girls are mostly very weak at throwing and cannot throw a ball nearly as far as the boys. In another few weeks I hope to have recorded the throws of all 200 children.

Can I add my daughter to the mix? If so, just tell me how to set it up and I can try it.

My son is 18, so I assume that he is out of the age range you are looking for.

[arturohernandez]

It isn't a big deal but everyone around her will make it a big deal. She's a tennis player at a very high level. What is so difficult in teaching a proper serve motion to a player of that caliber? We all teach lesser players this motion all the time. One of the big questions is about Cici. What about her attitude? It's a question of attitude first. Secondly...what about her coach? Why hasn't this been a priority?

Modern tennis is a bit whack these days. Modern women's tennis is really lacking in direction it seems to me although to be honest I have very little/no interest. Even though, as Ed Atkinson says, it's the same game but different clothes. I guess it is fair to say that very soon I will have very little/no interest in the men's game either barring some kind of miracle.

Interesting about McNamee...I never heard that about his backhand.

Two thoughts:

1) I was watching the Fed-Zverev replay from the Hopman Cup last night and heard a bit of commentary about Zverev's second serve. The commentator was noting that for 6-6 Zverev's second serve should help him setup the point so that he could attack the return. Then he said that his groundstrokes were so good that it made up for it.

I suspect that this happens with girls. The serve doesn't matter so much at a young age so why worry about it. A poor serve is likely to not hold them back as much.

2) Interesting that the most significant difference between good and great servers is shoulder over shoulder rotation.

At the same time it states that this part of the serve doesn't develop until later as the girls get older.

So there must be a crucial time to teach this and it may be a bit later in development than with boys do to strength.

Again, it must be part of the developmental progression and it might be that girls may need more time to get strong enough for shoulder to shoulder to matter.

Is there nothing on this from any of the junior development programs (i.e. ITF, USTA, LTA, Australian Tennis, etc.)?

[stotty]

Can I add my daughter to the mix? If so, just tell me how to set it up and I can try it.

My son is 18, so I assume that he is out of the age range you are looking for.

Of course, add them both in. Players must stand on the baseline and throw down the court as far as they can. They get three attempts with the furtherest throw recorded. Throws must be from a standing position with no run up permitted. The goal is to throw beyond the opposite baseline. Your boy would be a candidate to achieve that with that fast arm of his, but you would be surprised how many can't. Measurements are in metres if possible.

I am aiming 200 junior tennis throwers as a minimum so it would be great to have your two onboard.

[klacr]

Thanks for taking the time to post this...interesting.

I am doing a simple study at the moment involving 200 children of mixed gender and ages. All the children have to throw a tennis ball as far as they can. I have only recorded the throws of 32 children so far but already there is a significant difference between the boys and the girls. The girls are mostly very weak at throwing and cannot throw a ball nearly as far as the boys. In another few weeks I hope to have recorded the throws of all 200 children.

Would you accept a child that is 35 years old, 6ft 6in. tall from Florida? LOL.
Good luck with the study stotty. Interested to hear about the results.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[arturohernandez]

Of course, add them both in. Players must stand on the baseline and throw down the court as far as they can. They get three attempts with the furtherest throw recorded. Throws must be from a standing position with no run up permitted. The goal is to throw beyond the opposite baseline. Your boy would be a candidate to achieve that with that fast arm of his, but you would be surprised how many can't. Measurements are in metres if possible.

I am aiming 200 junior tennis throwers as a minimum so it would be great to have your two onboard.

Hi Stotty, So just to confirm. They stand on the baseline and throw the ball in a straight line (i.e. NOT diagonally, like they would in a regular serve) as far as they can. I am going to use video to capture the landing point. My guess is that you have most of the court measured out so I should be able to just measure from some fixed point on the court and give that to you. Do you have the court all measured out?

[stotty]

Hi Stotty, So just to confirm. They stand on the baseline and throw the ball in a straight line (i.e. NOT diagonally, like they would in a regular serve) as far as they can. I am going to use video to capture the landing point. My guess is that you have most of the court measured out so I should be able to just measure from some fixed point on the court and give that to you. Do you have the court all measured out?

Yes in starlight line from the baseline. I did have areas roughly marked using boundaries. I have since decided this too vague and started afresh and now use a long measuring tape to measure each and every throw accurately.

Would you accept a child that is 35 years old, 6ft 6in. tall from Florida? LOL.
Good luck with the study stotty. Interested to hear about the results.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Okay you can join in but you have to throw with your left arm while lying down flat on your back with the wind against you....

[johnyandell]

Stotty,
If you video some of this it would make a fascinating article.

[rwiener]

Two thoughts:

1) I was watching the Fed-Zverev replay from the Hopman Cup last night and heard a bit of commentary about Zverev's second serve. The commentator was noting that for 6-6 Zverev's second serve should help him setup the point so that he could attack the return. Then he said that his groundstrokes were so good that it made up for it.

I suspect that this happens with girls. The serve doesn't matter so much at a young age so why worry about it. A poor serve is likely to not hold them back as much.

It seems to me that in the old days a lot of women just used their serve as a set-up shot. I’m thinking Chris Evert as the paradigm but one could put a lot of great champions (e.g. Seles, etc) in this category. Maybe the difference between the current game and the old days is that there now are some players such as Williams and some others who actually use their service as a weapon. Didn’t used to be that way in the women’s game.

[arturohernandez]

I agree that there are women who can use their serve as a weapon. But it seems to be a tradeoff to a greater extent for women. Few can have big serves and move well. It seems either/or. For men there seems to be a sweet spot just around 6' to 6'3" where men can have a big serve and still move well.

Raonic has a bigger serve than Federer but Fed can still hit plenty big so that it is not a weakness.

Women who serve big end up being taller but less mobile. So the upside of the serve is not big enough to compensate for the need for movement.

Does this make sense?

[doctorhl]

Thanks for taking the time to post this...interesting.

I am doing a simple study at the moment involving 200 children of mixed gender and ages. All the children have to throw a tennis ball as far as they can. I have only recorded the throws of 32 children so far but already there is a significant difference between the boys and the girls. The girls are mostly very weak at throwing and cannot throw a ball nearly as far as the boys. In another few weeks I hope to have recorded the throws of all 200 children.

[doctorhl]

It would be interesting to see if there Is a way to formulate subject demographic information of prior throwing experience. My intuitive observations over the years seemed to sense a correlation between similar sport throwing experience like baseball throw or volleyball serve and the tennis serve. But, current research for a correlation is mixed.

[johnyandell]

Yeah and Federer was a soccer player...