Interactive Forum November 2017: Fabio Fognini Forehand

[stroke]

Roger Federer's stats were pre racquet switch. I wonder if they have changed since he switched to the slightly larger head.

I don't think we will ever know for sure. I have noticed the venues that measure rpm's have some significant variances in any player. Those on Nadal for instance are well below some I have seen measured at other tournamcents.

[stotty]

Roger Federer's stats were pre racquet switch. I wonder if they have changed since he switched to the slightly larger head.

I saw Roger play in the 2008 Wimbledon final and I saw him play Raonic in 2017, from roughly the same seat. A couple of things I can tell you for sure are that he hits the ball harder now and, at times, with more a lot more spin. I think one of the most amazing things about Roger is that, on his forehand, he can apply spin in such varying degrees. A lot of players just hit a uniform amount. Roger has this amazing capacity to vary the amount he gets at will.

Roger also hits his backhand harder and with more spin. His grip is definitely further round. In 2008 I was amazed how mild his grip was and how generally flat his backhand was. Not so today...a big change.

His best game at Wimbledon 2017 was against Raonic. I think it was the most spectacular tennis I have ever seen in terms of skill and shot making, but also in terms of the match itself. Roger didn't waste one ball. Raonic didn't even feel safe at 40-15 on his own serve. He must have felt like a beginner at the end of that match - the gap was that wide.

One journalist used the word 'marauding' to describe Roger. It's an apt word, you won't find a better word to describe him when he's all over an opponent.

But yes those stats I posted would look different if they were taken today.

He makes you wonder if he could continue to develop further if he were given 25 year-old body and could play for yet another ten years. In 2017 he mysteriously invented shots I had never seen him play before. I find that amazing.

[teachestennis]

These velocity and RPM stats were recorded on hard courts in matches played between 2009 and 2010. Another interesting observation was cross court forehands were hit harder than forehands hit down the line.

PLAYER	Avg. Ball Velocity (metre/second)	Avg. RPMs
Roger Federer	33.8	2350
Rafa Nadal	39.6	2680
Novak Djokovic	34.9	2550
Andy Murray	31.1	2590

When I saw these stats before about DTL vs CC speeds, 5263 said it was because with CC you have a longer court to hit into geometrically, much like the famous CC shots we saw from Del Potro at the US Open. The lower net and frequency that players hit aggressively CC tend to make sense that these would be a bit stronger. DTL is more about exploiting an advantage or an opening with a shorter ball, so the emphasis should be on a precision line of shot over power.

[stotty]

When I saw these stats before about DTL vs CC speeds, 5263 said it was because with CC you have a longer court to hit into geometrically, much like the famous CC shots we saw from Del Potro at the US Open. The lower net and frequency that players hit aggressively CC tend to make sense that these would be a bit stronger. DTL is more about exploiting an advantage or an opening with a shorter ball, so the emphasis should be on a precision line of shot over power.

Well, that would make perfect sense. I wonder if this is still the case on the "pull the trigger" shots down the line as oppose to hitting down the line to switch direction?

[don_budge]

I saw Roger play in the 2008 Wimbledon final and I saw him play Raonic in 2017, from roughly the same seat. A couple of things I can tell you for sure are that he hits the ball harder now and, at times, with more a lot more spin. I think one of the most amazing things about Roger is that, on his forehand, he can apply spin in such varying degrees. A lot of players just hit a uniform amount. Roger has this amazing capacity to vary the amount he gets at will.

Roger also hits his backhand harder and with more spin. His grip is definitely further round. In 2008 I was amazed how mild his grip was and how generally flat his backhand was. Not so today...a big change.

His best game at Wimbledon 2017 was against Raonic. I think it was the most spectacular tennis I have ever seen in terms of skill and shot making, but also in terms of the match itself. Roger didn't waste one ball. Raonic didn't even feel safe at 40-15 on his own serve. He must have felt like a beginner at the end of that match - the gap was that wide.

One journalist used the word 'marauding' to describe Roger. It's an apt word, you won't find a better word to describe him when he's all over an opponent.

But yes those stats I posted would look different if they were taken today.

He makes you wonder if he could continue to develop further if he were given 25 year-old body and could play for yet another ten years. In 2017 he mysteriously invented shots I had never seen him play before. I find that amazing.

Super posting...great you have a bird's eye view. My Good Lord...a picture is worth a thousand years.

There was never any question in my mind regarding his grip on the backhand. That is the first place you look when something changes to the degree that his backhand went from where it was to where it is. Thank you for that observation.

That is the mystique of the one handed backhand all-court game. There is ALWAYS room for improvement. That is why that game is a game for a lifetime whereas the current professional/junior game is limited. Federer is the Living Proof and not just because I say so. He goes out and proves it every single time he shows up.

[arturohernandez]

Tomic and Fognini seem to have similar styles. My son and I joke that if they both play each other there would be no knee bend ever.

It seems to me that Fognini uses a western grip which makes his swing look a little bit like Djokovic's.

It would be nice to see the whole variety of shots including low balls.

It would be nice to see if he really does bend his knees.

[tweaner]

One of the most frustrating things with training a male junior player (mine is currently in the top 10 of southern CA), is a huge fh takeback (I like to call it a WTA takeback). Showing my kid Fognini hit fh really drives the point home that a huge takeback achieves basically nothing other than making your timing worse/harder. Huge fh takeback also puts you at a big disadvantage against a fast low hitting flat opponent. Problem is, kids watch really successful guys like Djok with a pretty big loop and Murray, Thiem, and they think that is the way to do it. I think Fognini and Ferrer approach on fh makes more sense. Comments? Advice on teaching junior boys the fh motion?

[stotty]

One of the most frustrating things with training a male junior player (mine is currently in the top 10 of southern CA), is a huge fh takeback (I like to call it a WTA takeback). Showing my kid Fognini hit fh really drives the point home that a huge takeback achieves basically nothing other than making your timing worse/harder. Huge fh takeback also puts you at a big disadvantage against a fast low hitting flat opponent. Problem is, kids watch really successful guys like Djok with a pretty big loop and Murray, Thiem, and they think that is the way to do it. I think Fognini and Ferrer approach on fh makes more sense. Comments? Advice on teaching junior boys the fh motion?

I think hitting like Fognini is a big ask. His forehand is unusually compact. So long as juniors are within reasonable swings parameters, that's fine. Djokovic can go toe-to-toe with Roger in forehand to forehand rallies and look like he has the more time of the two. Preparation is perhaps the bigger deal. Djokovic is so robotically clean in his preparation phase.

Another quality to look at and perhaps instil is the ability to reduce the backswing in relation to how much time is available. Borg had a fairly big backswing, but he could reduce it to nothing on return of serve or in an emergency if he had to. I consider this an essential quality, actually.

Most boys will reduce their backswings naturally over time as they get older and stronger. I tend not to stress over it. In most cases the reduction happens on its own with little intervention necessary from the coach. Just let nature take its course. With girls, however, big backswings are usually there to stay once they have developed and very hard to do anything about. In most cases the best one can hope for is to get from a type 1 to type 2.

[teachestennis]

Well, that would make perfect sense. I wonder if this is still the case on the "pull the trigger" shots down the line as oppose to hitting down the line to switch direction?

A "pull the trigger"down the line should be a type of midcourt attack, meaning the player has been able to step inside the baseline and initiate an attack that should be an approach, winner or forced error. These shots will tend to be on the more powerful side but again relying heavily on precision as well as quickness through the court due to the shorter distance traveled. So from this respect, the biggest CC shots will still tend to be of a higher MPH than even the hardest pull the trigger DTLs on average. 5263 (from Tennis Warehouse threads) is my partner so I get it right, lol, but he says if the contact point is higher than the net, these shots will normally be hit with an inside 'side-topspin'. Even the exceptions like the Youtube Monfils 120 MPH FH DTL can be explained due to the long travel of his shot since he was way behind the baseline and his leap into the air not only allowed him to fully rotate across the ball as well as get a high contact point enabling him to hit straight out over the net with a very flat shot trajectory with a laser 'power fade'.