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  • #31

    At a level that no one else ever has? You have to be careful here though. You see...the equipment is deceptive. With only an incremental increase in the size of his stick...some 7 square inches it has made all of the difference. You cannot compare. We cannot compare from one era to another. I have spoken of culmination points in past posts and we are nearing the end of the Roger Federer Era of tennis where we will encounter another culmination point. These occurs approximately every 15 to 17 years.

    I am old enough to remember the best I have seen, which is Laver, Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Lendl, Sampras, Agassi. I would put Roger, Nadal, and Djokovic with this group. I do not think there is any doubt that the 97 inch racquet has helped Roger. I think the 97-100 is the sweetspot for the most efficient racquet size. I think Agassi probably would have been just about the same with that size. I personally think the 108, the law of diminishing returns come in(a bit too unwieldy). No doubt in my mind Sampras would have benefited from going up to the 98-100, but I still doubt he would have won the French. Winning all 4 Majors is huge and so very difficult to do. Lendl was so close, all over winning Wimbledon but could not do it. I remember I was really pulling for him to get it. He worked so hard to try and win it, he went all in, the anti Kyrgios, Tomic, Fognini. To me, not to beat a dead horse, but Federer stands alone.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by stroke View Post
      To me, not to beat a dead horse, but Federer stands alone.
      You could be right, but even since the big racket Roger has made no dent against Djokovic in any of the majors, with Djokovic winning all four of their meets at majors since 2014.

      People have incredibly short memories in tennis. When Djokovic held all four majors, he was just about untouchable. He even beat Roger in his own backyard in two Wimbledon finals.

      He won't now win as many majors as Roger or Rafa but he is equal to them if not better in my view. He may be boring to many, but to me he is awfully good, and he wore his world number one T-Shirt with pride and aplomb.
      Last edited by stotty; 11-02-2017, 07:27 AM.
      Stotty

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      • #33
        Originally posted by stotty View Post

        You could be right, but even since the big racket Roger has made no dent against Djokovic in any of the majors, with Djokovic winning all four of their meets at majors since 2014.

        People have incredibly short memories in tennis. When Djokovic held all four majors, he was just about untouchable. He even beat Roger in his own backyard in two Wimbledon finals.

        He won't now win as many majors as Roger or Rafa but he is equal to them if not better in my view. He may be boring to many, but to me he is awfully good, and he wore his world number one T-Shirt with pride and aplomb.
        I am all in on Djokovic's greatness. I am just saying of these 3 great players, to me 3 of the greatest players of all time, if I had to rank them right now, it would be Fed, Rafa, and then Novak.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by don_budge View Post

          At a level that no one else ever has? You have to be careful here though. You see...the equipment is deceptive. With only an incremental increase in the size of his stick...some 7 square inches it has made all of the difference. You cannot compare. We cannot compare from one era to another. I have spoken of culmination points in past posts and we are nearing the end of the Roger Federer Era of tennis where we will encounter another culmination point. These occurs approximately every 15 to 17 years.

          As to the depth of men's tennis...you've heard my argument many times. If you look at the draw sheets from the !970's this was hands down the deepest tennis ever was. With McEnroe, Borg, Lendl and Connors at the top with the longest list of supporting players the game has ever known. This was the era that I was competitive in. Today's game is the most one-dimensional era and therefore the weakest ever....
          It is interesting to compare generations even if, in truth, it's virtually impossible. The point where the game really separated is perhaps more due to racket string technology than rackets themselves. Once they invented a string that gave a player 25% more topspin above previous string generations, it brought about the death of serve and volley. This certainly seems to be the conventional wisdom as to why serve and volley died. Roger has said as much himself. And you have to listen to Roger because he understands the game better than anyone else, better than any of us, better perhaps than all the other players on the tour. McEnroe, Tilden and Gonzales probably understood the game as well as Roger. I am talking about understanding every single facet of the game, not just part of it.

          I think there is plenty of depth in men's tennis if you don't take into account the BIG four and a few others. It's just, as we have said many times before, if everyone plays in a similar way then you will get what you have today. The BIG four move better than all the others and, crucially, defend better. Attacking as Roger is, it's his defence that has played such a crucial part in his winning so many titles. Overall, if a player plays the same way as Novak, Rafa and Murray, but cannot move as well, then all things being equal, they're stuffed. It's been this way for a decade.

          With regards to equipment, many players have denied themselves better equipment in the past. I have an old wooden Donnay (the one used by Borg) and T2000 (used by Connors). There is no comparison between the two rackets. The metal frame is infinitely better than the wood. Why any player would deny themselves better equipment, god only knows, but Borg did it, and Roger has too. I guess a player feels more secure using the racket he has won with in the past, especially if he has a history of winning big.

          At least players had more options in the past. You couldn't beat Borg by rallying so players instead chipped and charged, or opted for short rallies, or used touch and guile....or a mix of all three.

          Last edited by stotty; 11-02-2017, 02:26 PM.
          Stotty

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          • #35
            Originally posted by stotty View Post

            It is interesting to compare generations even if, in truth, it's virtually impossible. The point where the game really separated is perhaps more due to racket string technology than rackets themselves. Once they invented a string that gave a player 25% more topspin above previous string generations, it brought about the death of serve and volley. This certainly seems to be the conventional wisdom as to why serve and volley died. Roger has said as much himself. And you have to listen to Roger because he understands the game better than anyone else, better than any of us, better perhaps than all the other players on the tour. McEnroe, Tilden and Gonzales probably understood the game as well as Roger. I am talking about understanding every single facet of the game, not just part of it.

            I think there is plenty of depth in men's tennis if you don't take into account the BIG four and a few others. It's just, as we have said many times before, if everyone plays in a similar way then you will get what you have today. The BIG four move better than all the others and, crucially, defend better. Attacking as Roger is, it's his defence that has played such a crucial part in his winning so many titles. Overall, if a player plays the same way as Novak, Rafa and Murray, but cannot move as well, then all things being equal, they're stuffed. It's been this way for a decade.

            With regards to equipment, many players have denied themselves better equipment in the past. I have an old wooden Donnay (the one used by Borg) and T2000 (used by Connors). There is no comparison between the two rackets. The metal frame is infinitely better than the wood. Why any player would deny themselves better equipment, god only knows, but Borg did it, and Roger has too. I guess a player feels more secure using the racket he has won with in the past, especially if he has a history of winning big.

            At least players had more options in the past. You couldn't beat Borg by rallying so players instead chipped and charged, or opted for short rallies, or used touch and guile....or a mix of all three.
            Congratulations on your most Orwellian post to date.

            Originally posted by stotty View Post
            You write really well, bottle. You have a style all of your own. I find your style acrobatic.
            You start to remind me of your "mentor". Acrobatic? More like erratic.

            "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

            And treat those two impostors just the same;

            If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken

            Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,"

            To make a trap for fools...


            don_budge
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            • #36
              It's so annoying to hear an Orwellian character like don_budge call other people Orwellian. Just remember that don_budge loves Donald Trump-- he really loves him. And Trump is the Most Orwellian of all the many demagogues this country has suffered including Father Coughlin, Joseph McCarthy and well...the well runs very deep.

              But, what can you expect? Annoyance, not regard for any kind of truth, is what the Trumpadenoids are all about.

              How small minded-- once you get under the surface-- all of these fuckers are.

              "Nobody has ever called me the things you have." Oh yes somebody has. Me.
              Last edited by bottle; 11-02-2017, 08:32 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by bottle View Post
                It's so annoying to hear an Orwellian character like don_budge call other people Orwellian. Just remember that don_budge loves Donald Trump-- he really loves him. And Trump is the Most Orwellian of all the many demagogues this country has suffered including Father Coughlin, Joseph McCarthy and well...the well runs very deep.

                But, what can you expect? Annoyance, not regard for any kind of truth, is what the Trumpadenoids are all about.

                How small minded-- once you get under the surface-- all of these fuckers are.

                "Nobody has ever called me the things you have." Oh yes somebody has. Me.
                True to form...start with a false assumption and then just proceed recklessly. Much as Dostoyevsky said about the possessed. But stotty and I were talking about another subject so I will just wait to see if he responds to my jab. If not...that's ok too.

                But I am praying for you bottle.
                don_budge
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by don_budge View Post

                  But I am praying for you bottle.
                  You can pray for me if you want but I'd rather you not. Seems like a curse. And you need your own energy for The Rapture-- any day now. In which you and like minded partisans choose a special spot to assemble. I nominate Montauk Point, Long Island. It's pretty flat but you can still go up to the top of a dune. Then, SWOOSH, up you go, to be with God, who has thin orange hair.

                  What a party you'll have up there in heaven. "They thought they had us," you can say to The Donald. "But I knew you'd be vindicated all the time. Because I'd read THE ART OF THE DEAL. Just loved the way you hit the topspin forehand followed by a dropshot. Genius, Donald, if you don't mind my saying so, you are a genius and I truly love you."

                  "I love you, too, my son. Let's listen to a song together."

                  "Waterloo"

                  My, my, at Waterloo Napoleon did surrender
                  Oh yeah, and I have met my destiny in quite a similar way
                  The history book on the shelf
                  Is always repeating itself

                  Waterloo - I was defeated, you won the war
                  Waterloo - Promise to love you for ever more
                  Waterloo - Couldn't escape if I wanted to
                  Waterloo - Knowing my fate is to be with you
                  Waterloo - Finally facing my Waterloo

                  My, my, I tried to hold you back but you were stronger
                  Oh yeah, and now it seems my only chance is giving up the fight
                  And how could I ever refuse
                  I feel like I win when I lose

                  Waterloo - I was defeated, you won the war
                  Waterloo - Promise to love you for ever more
                  Waterloo - Couldn't escape if I wanted to
                  Waterloo - Knowing my fate is to be with you
                  Waterloo - Finally facing my Waterloo

                  So how could I ever refuse
                  I feel like I win when I lose -

                  Waterloo - Couldn't escape if I wanted to
                  Waterloo - Knowing my fate is to be with you
                  Waterloo - Finally facing my Waterloo
                  Last edited by bottle; 11-03-2017, 03:23 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by bottle View Post

                    You can pray for me if you want but I'd rather you not. Seems like a curse. And you need your own energy for The Rapture-- any day now. In which you and like minded partisans choose a special spot to assemble. I nominate Montauk Point, Long Island. It's pretty flat but you can still go up to the top of a dune. Then, SWOOSH, up you go, to be with God, who has thin orange hair.

                    What a party you'll have up there in heaven. "They thought they had us," you can say to The Donald. "But I knew you'd be vindicated all the time. Because I'd read THE ART OF THE DEAL. Just loved the way you hit the topspin forehand followed by a dropshot. Genius, Donald, if you don't mind my saying so, you are a genius and I truly love you."

                    "I love you, too, my son. Let's listen to a song together."
                    It's reckless. But go ahead...as you say it seems like a curse. You seem to be cursed. I've suspected demons for a while now. A long while. We will see how it plays out. It will be interesting. For the record...I don't wish you any ill. Quite the contrary...I hope that you get better. Whatever that takes.

                    The Lord works in mystic ways. Keep an eye out for signs. I'm seeing signs.

                    The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
                    He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
                    He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
                    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
                    Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
                    Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

                    — Psalm 23:1-6

                    I know a man not far from you. He can help you. Tell me when you are ready for the Lord to come into your life. I don't feel any superiority by the way...I am praying for forgiveness.
                    don_budge
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by don_budge View Post

                      It's reckless. But go ahead...as you say it seems like a curse. You seem to be cursed. I've suspected demons for a while now. A long while. We will see how it plays out. It will be interesting. For the record...I don't wish you any ill. Quite the contrary...I hope that you get better. Whatever that takes.

                      The Lord works in mystic ways. Keep an eye out for signs. I'm seeing signs.

                      The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
                      He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
                      He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
                      Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
                      Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
                      Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

                      — Psalm 23:1-6

                      I know a man not far from you. He can help you. Tell me when you are ready for the Lord to come into your life. I don't feel any superiority by the way...I am praying for forgiveness.
                      YECCHH! You are the same guy who accosted me in the post office. "Do you want to be a born again," he says. "Nope," I reply. And I don't. I love my life. Why would I want to be dead? Religiosity isn't going to do it, Steve.

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                      • #41
                        Be that as it may...I meant no harm.
                        don_budge
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bottle View Post

                          YECCHH! You are the same guy who accosted me in the post office. "Do you want to be a born again," he says. "Nope," I reply. And I don't. I love my life. Why would I want to be dead? Religiosity isn't going to do it, Steve.
                          Yes bottle...I know. I thought it was worth a try though. You are lost...so lost you don't even know it. Where are you? How did you get there? When you give up on these questions...you may have a chance.
                          don_budge
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by don_budge View Post

                            Yes bottle...I know. I thought it was worth a try though. You are lost...so lost you don't even know it. Where are you? How did you get there? When you give up on these questions...you may have a chance.
                            The right-hand man, sitting on the right side of the orange-haired chief deity up in Valhalla, speaks. Do his words show presumption? A lot.
                            Last edited by bottle; 11-03-2017, 04:58 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Ok bottle. Try to get some sleep now. I hope you have the day off.
                              don_budge
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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                                Ok bottle. Try to get some sleep now. I hope you have the day off.
                                I do, until tennis tonight. Am debating on whether to pay the extra $!0 for the warmup drill as I did last week. I've been teaching three days a week, which is just about right. And think I'll be moving in a couple of weeks if I can stay in my own lane until then. The thing I will miss most is having my own 12 self-feed courts, those abandoned courts at Rouge River Park which you know so well.
                                Last edited by bottle; 11-03-2017, 06:36 AM.

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