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Mechanics of the 2-handed backhand

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  • Mechanics of the 2-handed backhand

    The thread on forehand supination was so informative that I feel compelled to start a similar thread on the 2-handed backhand.

    I am aware that John Yandell has written a great article on the four different types of 2HBH. I just want to explore an aspect that doesn't seem to have been addressed. Please do point out if this has been addressed elsewhere.

    One common theme in most pros' 2HBH seems to be that they drop the racquet head just before the forward swing, and swing from the inside to the outside just like the FH. Indeed, the left wrist (for a righty) lays back just like the right wrist does for the FH.

    Here's the part that seems to be different from the FH. As the racquet nears the contact point with the ball, the right arm seems to become a pivot point for the pronating left arm. The non-dominant arm by itself, without the dominant arm's help, would probably be difficult to pronate since it has weaker extensor and pronator muscles. But with the right arm serving as a pivot point, it is much easier. This seems to be true with all the four types of 2HBH - but not being an expert in video analysis, I am not certain about this.

    In this theory, all the considerations of the FH must also apply to the 2HBH, with minor modifications. For example, the ideal stance for the 2HBH will be more closed than that for the FH because the dominant hand must be accomodated. By the same theory, an SW grip for the left hand is probably ideal, but since the left hand is weaker, probably a more eastern grip - resulting in less spin - is needed to drive the ball deep.

    As to grip pressure, I think the dominant arm's grip should be really relaxed so it facilitates the pivot action... but of course, both hands should be "loose" in general for maximal racquet head speed. I am experimenting with the grips at present.

  • #2
    Check out the article on hand and rotation--my terminology for what you guys are talking about or at least some of it. There are a lot of high speed images to contemplate.

    http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...m_rotaion.html

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    • #3
      Hey John, I don' t know how I missed that article... it is a a great writeup. It's been only a few weeks since I renewed my membership and I feel like I got my money's worth already! :-)

      I look forward to your next article on the 2HBH. I feel like I am on the verge of understanding it, but there is still something elusive about it... I am not able to get the feel with the 2HBH that I do with the FH, but with some help I think I will.

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      • #4
        John,
        You put alot of work into that article. I don't have the patience in writting (talking to people is different) to avoid biomechanic terms, so hats off to you for trying to make that stuff more accessable (it takes alot more typing to make it simpler).

        As for the "windsheild wiper" ending on the backhand/ where is the future...

        I've got a whole Nadal practice session this year (first row right behind him) where he "wipers" on every finish. I assumed he was just instinctively trying to mimick his forehand motion.

        It makes sense that players are going to want to get the same drop on the ball (the same safety). With the Safin style, you get used to it going in on the forehand and then it goes out on the backhand if you aim the same height because it's flatter (this can be annoying). Were thinking about changing this disparity on one of my players.

        Then some days your just "on" and you love that flatness (you can hit alot of winners or forcing shots). I'm guessing that Nadal probably even's it out so there's less suprises (oops I just missed by 10 feet, oh yeah I have to aim lower on that side.) You don't need more to think about when you're returning balls comming that fast/all the pressure of break point is on you.

        Eric

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        • #5
          Eric, I am also trying to find that magic which will even things out between my FH and 2HBH. On my FH, I have a much better "feel", for want of a better word. I can control pace and spin, to the point where I know exactly what's going to happen, and all my shots are repeatable.

          This is not the case with my 2HBH. I can hit great shots, but I don't have as good a feel for it as I have for the FH. When it breaks down, I can't keep the ball in to save my life. I believe this is because of faulty mechanics, the effect of which is that I am not able to generate racquet head speed consistently, as I can on the FH. The best coach I know uses a 1HBH, and couldn't quite help me, although he made some fabulous suggestions that I have incorporated into my game.

          Trying to incorporate SSR into the 2HBH, and making it pretty much a left-handed forehand helped some, but not being a natural lefty, I couldn't quite emulate a forehand. After doing a bunch of reading, and staring at various videos for many weeks, I concluded that consistent left arm pronation was only possible with help from the right arm, which would have to act like a pivot. I have been trying this, and things are a lot better, but I have a ways to go. My goal is to have the same feel and confidence in the 2HBH as I have in the FH.

          The only new thing, if any, is that I am discovering a role for the dominant arm that I hadn't noticed before - that is, acting as a pivot more than as a power enhancer. I am hoping that someone will corroborate this from their experience, so I don't end up perfecting the wrong thing!

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          • #6
            Eric,

            That's what I enjoy. It's how I figure it out for myself. I know I am there when the explanation is clear.

            The interesting thing is that I am just observing. The analysis is based on positions. I don't speculate too much on what the body is doing. But the insights from biomechanics can help explain why.

            Have to agree the wiper is coming in the two-handed bh. It's here, but as on the forehand, there will be a progression.

            Appreciate all your contributions to the boards and also the dialogue you have stimulated!

            John

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            • #7
              Right wrist/forearm contribution to spin on the 2hander.

              Tennisplayer,

              My experience has definitelly been that the right arm (I'm right handed) does not power the shot on a 2hbh but does mostly only function as a stabilizer and steering tool for the force created by the left side of the body.

              I think this is what you meant by "pivot".

              This has been my experience in coaching as well as playing, The left side does the work, the right side just does some steering help (but mostly the right hand's just along for the ride).

              But I don't think the above answer is what your interested in..

              As for helping the pronation along by using the right hand...

              This is a point of evolution since the Borg/Evert eras.

              The right wrist can use it's hyperextension/radial flexion ability to aid the whole rubbing/wiper effect.

              How?

              the left forearm pronates (semi western or strong eastern), and the right wrist (continental)hyperextends/radial flexes and these actions will both together cause the wiper effect which the racket needs to increase spin beyond what the low to high hand movement causes. The speed of this movement dictates in my theory how fast the ball spins.

              It's easy to check to see if someone is doing this on video...

              When a player does this, the racquet finish will point down more if he or she is a "wrapper" (Nadal, Ferrero most of the time) or it will point more towards the head (not straight up) if the player's not a "wrapper"(meaning a straight left arm finish) such as (Safin/Moya). Lack of "wrap" is just caused by keeping the tricep contracted later after the contact whereas relaxing the tricep earlier will cause a wrap. Wrapping or not wrapping will not effect the movement were focusing on in this post.

              Vince Spadea's a "rapper" but not a "wrapper"

              Tour players vary the pronation/hyperextension/radial flexion depending upon how much spin they want.

              I really like Ferrero on the backhand, he can really do alot on that wing. I've taped his backhands alot over the years and learned alot from copying it and trying to teach it his way. He's alot like Agassi in that he can do so much from that side that he runs around it less than the rest of the guys. He also gets amazingly fast trunk rotation, he looks like a spinning top. If you want to get some pop, copy Ferrero.
              Last edited by EricMatuszewski; 10-09-2006, 05:20 AM. Reason: realized I meant hyperextensio/radial flexion (not just hyperextension)

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              • #8
                Eric, thanks a lot - that was exactly what I was looking for. I will go back and look at Ferrero more closely. A wrapper is what I want to be - never was good at rap!

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                • #9
                  Just understand,

                  The wrap on that backhand doesn't affect the actual hitting of the ball (spin or pace).

                  The important actions you'll need to experiment with here are the right wrist movements, if your interested in helping along the pronation contribution to spin cause by the left side.

                  Again just to review..The wrap isn't going to make a difference in ball quality for you (It's really just a way to slow down the racket comfortably,you could end "straight arm" without any consequence). Ferrero ends both ways, he's really well versed on that side.

                  Didn't want a dissapointed customer..
                  Eric Matuszewski

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                  • #10
                    I understand, Eric. I am already having some good results (I hit with my partner today), so I'm actually ecstatic - not at all disappointed! Of course, it will take a while to commit all this to muscle memory, and even at my best I don't expect to hit like Ferrero... I just want to hit some good shots and kick some butt in my league!

                    Thanks again, man, and I'm glad John talked you into staying on this board!

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