Visual and kinetic learning

[vaz pinto]

Hello John,

I am a portuguese tennis coach currently working in Hong Kong. I've recently subscribe to your site and it has been just amazing. I've been learning all the time that I check the site with all new information and all those great high speed images. I saw that article you wrote about the myth of the wrap on the forehand and I know exactly how bad it feels to see young junior tennis players having that ugly and artificial swing. Now at least I have a cientific article to proof my view and to show it to some of my students. Thanks for that!

It's very true that we learn mainly through visual and kinestic chanels. In my case I remember when I was 18 years old I had a good forehand that I was very proud of but I knew that was something missing in my swing because it just wasn't consistent enough. But one day I was seeing one friend of mine playing, who had a great forehand, and I automatically visualise the way that he swang and hit the ball and it just felt so easy in my mind that I knew that I had no problem imitating his swing. It was the missing link!! From that day my forehand becomed the weapon that I dreamed about. That vision was so powerfull in my mind that 15 years after I still can remember all about that day, the court where he was playing and everithing is still very clear in my brain.

Now that I have seen through your site the importance of the speed video analysis, I feel that I have to buy one of those video cameras. Could you give some advice of the speed video cameras ?

Thank's for that and keep up with the great tennis site!!

You're helping to build up better coaches and better players...

best regards

Andre Vaz Pinto

[bocage]

forehand finish

i do not think it is fare that landsdorp is going to take credit for seeing this finish on the forehand.heath waters has been using this finish for 12 years or more by watching thomas muster and toher clay court players.i am from the south and i do know for a fact that heath started using this finish when he started his academy back in 1994 and coaches around the south thought he was crazy.i do not know john yandell or anything about him but what i would like to know is how many jr players has he produced with top international and national rankings starting from the the age of 8 or 9 years old or younger not kids that come to him when they are already developed.some of heaths students that he developed from a very young age just for example are ashley harkleroad,tanner cocharan, ally baker,alli smith, and so on i am a coach in louisiana and have been traveling to big tournaments in the south for ten plus years so i know about heaths results he probably had the biggest academy in the south for over 5 years he had 8 different locations and every one his students that he taught private lessons for over 5 years all had a national ranking of top 10 or higher and world ranking of 500 or higher with a couple of top 100 rankings.it was probably the biggest academy in the nation.so i just think that he needs to be given credit for what he calls the millenium forehand finish and there are three different type of finishes one for a flat ball, one for moderate topspin rally ball, and one for excessive topspin and if you watch the pros they all do this on the ones that use this finish. so i do not think that robert landsdorp deserves and kind of credit for this because he was too set his ways to try it ten years ago so if you are going to get anybody to write a article get somebody who had the guts to try it when everybody else was to chicken to try it and to worried about what the never moving forward tennis world would say. heath has been studying video for over 15 years and to brian gordon who said be careful about people that do not understand biomechanics heath has a somebody with a biomechanic degree working with him and heath never does anything with out putting alot of resaerch into just go to website and watch how simple the reference points are to learn what he teaches you and you can clearly see on his video analysis because he shows you the whole stroke not just what he wants you to see. i could keep ranting on but john you have an okay site thats why i am member but heaths results speak for themselves weather you agree or not i do not think you have produced the amount of players he has and i use his methods now and i have only known him for about a year and half and i met him before his website but i have seen more results in that year and half with my students than anytime before.

[jayfro]

I've learned quite a bit about tennis strokes from tennisplayer.net as well as the site that Heath Waters runs. I think Heath does a great job of breaking down strokes so teaching pros and players can get a good feel for what the strokes should look like. It gives you a good step by step approach on mechanics and basically how to get world class technique. I doubt his work will ever show up on tennisplayer as he has his own site to run, but it would be neat to have a contribution from Heath on this site.


As far as the Lansdorp article, it's good that he's adopting this finish. He's obviously had great results with players in the past.

[johnyandell]

Bocage what is that all about?

It's very hard to follow, because it's more or less one long run on sentence (or maybe 3). But apparently Robert's article hit some kind of nerve.

If I get it right you think that Robert is trying to "take credit" for the lower finish? I think you need to go back and read the article again. What Robert is doing is simply describing his own evolution as a teacher, which includes studying the finishes of top players.

I'm assuming that's what Heath did as well. I've written about the use of hand and arm rotation on the forehand several times over the last few years, and so has Brett Hobden. I think most good coaches have tried to figure it out. And I'm pretty sure Robert hasn't been reading Heath's articles since he can't use a computer.

I'm sure Heath Waters has a great record as a developmental coach. And I'm glad you are getting results. That's a tough job and my hat is off to the guys (like Robert) who do that work. It's not my area of interest and I haven't ever claimed differently.

[stroke]

John,

You handled your response with class and respect, as usual. It's possible that some folks on this site can pick up some tips other than tennis stuff.

[gzhpcu]

I am a bit baffled... Writing about something is not synonymous to taking credit for it.

[jeffreycounts]

i do not think it is fare that landsdorp is going to take credit for seeing this finish on the forehand.heath waters has been using this finish for 12 years or more by watching thomas muster and toher clay court players.i am from the south and i do know for a fact that heath started using this finish when he started his academy back in 1994 and coaches around the south thought he was crazy.i do not know john yandell or anything about him but what i would like to know is how many jr players has he produced with top international and national rankings starting from the the age of 8 or 9 years old or younger not kids that come to him when they are already developed.some of heaths students that he developed from a very young age just for example are ashley harkleroad,tanner cocharan, ally baker,alli smith, and so on i am a coach in louisiana and have been traveling to big tournaments in the south for ten plus years so i know about heaths results he probably had the biggest academy in the south for over 5 years he had 8 different locations and every one his students that he taught private lessons for over 5 years all had a national ranking of top 10 or higher and world ranking of 500 or higher with a couple of top 100 rankings.it was probably the biggest academy in the nation.so i just think that he needs to be given credit for what he calls the millenium forehand finish and there are three different type of finishes one for a flat ball, one for moderate topspin rally ball, and one for excessive topspin and if you watch the pros they all do this on the ones that use this finish. so i do not think that robert landsdorp deserves and kind of credit for this because he was too set his ways to try it ten years ago so if you are going to get anybody to write a article get somebody who had the guts to try it when everybody else was to chicken to try it and to worried about what the never moving forward tennis world would say. heath has been studying video for over 15 years and to brian gordon who said be careful about people that do not understand biomechanics heath has a somebody with a biomechanic degree working with him and heath never does anything with out putting alot of resaerch into just go to website and watch how simple the reference points are to learn what he teaches you and you can clearly see on his video analysis because he shows you the whole stroke not just what he wants you to see. i could keep ranting on but john you have an okay site thats why i am member but heaths results speak for themselves weather you agree or not i do not think you have produced the amount of players he has and i use his methods now and i have only known him for about a year and half and i met him before his website but i have seen more results in that year and half with my students than anytime before.

Why are you a member with Tennisplayer then if Heath knows everything there is to know about tennis, has the biggest tennis academy in the United States, and singlehandedly produced Ashley Harkleroad and Alex Bogmolov Jr.? I mean with that kind of a background why would you need to learn something from anyone else?

I hate to tell you, but John started this whole video revolution in tennis. I guarantee you that if John hadn't pioneered this field there would be no Heath Waters' website. No John, no TennisOne. No TennisOne, no Heath.

And Heath has a problem of using one example and claiming it is the "future of tennis". The "stretch shortening cycle" as he calls it for example. Yes Federer gets this action on a lot of forehands. Hewitt or Blake rarely do at all. Does that mean Hewitt or Blake's forehands aren't good? And Heath's idea that your wrist should be in a "neutral handshaking" position on contact. Is that even humanly possible? How can you hit out in front of your body if your hand is in a "neutral hand shaking" position? Video shows that on contact the pros wrist is slightly laid back and usually down about 45 degrees. Do you shake hands like that?? Could you shake Nalbandian's hand in the below picture on contact? A neutral hand shaking position was used for contact when players hit with Continental grips, like John McEnroe.

You are completely ignorant of John's background and the work he has done. Why don't you read a bit about his background before criticizing him on his own site. What kind of a moron attacks someone on their own site without knowing anything about them???

Tennisplayer offers MULTIPLE perspectives on tennis. Heath offers ONE perspective. And Heath's video library has about 100 videos while Tennisplayer has 10,000, even though Heaths' site costs THREE TIMES as much money. And I love how Heath has three different prices depending on which content he wants to lock you out of. That's real nice.

And tell me more about how Heath has single handely created top tour players? I just read Ashley Harkelroad's bio and didn't see Heath's name in there one time. It actually lists two other coaches names, Jay Berger and Jose Luis Clerc.

http://www.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=176684&itype=&iCategoryID=200

Alex Bogomolov, Heath's other claim to fame, was taught tennis by his own father, who he still continues to work with:

http://www.alexbogomolovjr.com/bio.html

How does this compare to Lansdorp?
"Robert's players include 4 champions who have gone on to become number one in the world: Mara Sharapova, Pete Sampras, Lindsay Davenport, and Tracy Austin"

Heath has done some nice work, and has some good insight into the game. But if you think he is the only person on the planet to see that players finish lower on the opposite side on certain balls, then you are crazy. Coaches have been teaching that finish for over 20 years now. And there are potentially big problems with that finish if you don't understand what happens at contact. You can tell a kid to finsh down his left side and he can easily just swing right across the ball with no pace or body behind the ball. With only three reference points - takeback, contact, and finish, there is a huge potential for error around and after contact.

Jeff

[jeffreycounts]

Hello John,

I am a portuguese tennis coach currently working in Hong Kong. I've recently subscribe to your site and it has been just amazing. I've been learning all the time that I check the site with all new information and all those great high speed images. I saw that article you wrote about the myth of the wrap on the forehand and I know exactly how bad it feels to see young junior tennis players having that ugly and artificial swing. Now at least I have a cientific article to proof my view and to show it to some of my students. Thanks for that!

It's very true that we learn mainly through visual and kinestic chanels. In my case I remember when I was 18 years old I had a good forehand that I was very proud of but I knew that was something missing in my swing because it just wasn't consistent enough. But one day I was seeing one friend of mine playing, who had a great forehand, and I automatically visualise the way that he swang and hit the ball and it just felt so easy in my mind that I knew that I had no problem imitating his swing. It was the missing link!! From that day my forehand becomed the weapon that I dreamed about. That vision was so powerfull in my mind that 15 years after I still can remember all about that day, the court where he was playing and everithing is still very clear in my brain.

Now that I have seen through your site the importance of the speed video analysis, I feel that I have to buy one of those video cameras. Could you give some advice of the speed video cameras ?

Thank's for that and keep up with the great tennis site!!

You're helping to build up better coaches and better players...

best regards

Andre Vaz Pinto

What an amazing tribute to the power of visual learning!

There is scientific evidence now that people learn motor movements best by first watching another perform the action. Scientific American Mind published an article in Apr 2006 about about the discovery of "mirror neurons". Here is an excerpt from that article:

"[Mirror] neurons are scattered throughout key parts of our brain -- the premotor cortext and centers for language, empathy, and pain -- and fire not only as we perform a certain action but also when we watch someone else perform that action. These neurons have been studied in the past for their roles in movement and other functions. Now, however, researchers are examining them intensely for what seems to be an additional function -- the way they fire in response to something observed."

John picked up on this years ago and applied it to tennis with his video The Winning Edge back in 1999. It was the first video designed to teach almost exclusively through visual image, using Lendl and McEnroe as models.

Your description of clearly remembering the impact of visual learning from 15 years ago is such a testiment to the power of this phenomenon. I loved reading your post!

Jeff

[gzhpcu]

Another great thing about visual learning is that there is no danger of confusion through semantics. A verbal description invokes different images in different people. Visual imagery is clear.

Just as a side statement: In my job I used to have to make Powerpoint presentations of IT strategy for large audiences. I always used as many images as possible and the minimal amount of words on the slides. The message came across much clearer.

John pioneered the visual approach in tennis, and this site is terrific, because of the great articles with the video clips, and also the possbility for participants to attach imagery in their postings to communicate with one another.

Couple visual images (looking at yourself in the mirror), aping new strokes, with trying to "remember the feel" and program muscle memory, and it is a great way to quickly improve. (plus videotaping yourself while playing...)

[johnyandell]

Jeff,

Thanks for the great words! All that you describe would have happened no doubt with or without me, but it was (and is!) exciting to play a part.

I think what happened with our friend Bocage is that Robert's article twanged a big nerve, and we've all felt that way.

Sometimes it's nice just to vent. I try to be mature here but have been known to enjoy a fight over on the TennisWarehouse message boards from time to time...

John

[vaz pinto]

Thanks for your messages guys (Jeff, John and gzhpcu). It's good to be around with smart people.

However about your message Bocage its a complete diferent story. When you talk about the players that a certain coach PRODUCE it really gets on my nerves. Bocage you are not seeing the right picture. The role of the coach is not to produce players but TRY to help them become the best they can be. And we just have to accept that if one of our players actually gets there is because they worked very hard, they were focused, they had a tough mind and they risk it all for it. In other words it was basically 90% their merits!!
we as tennis coaches are trying to help with the other 10%.

The millenium forehand??
It's a very nice name, UaU!. Well if you know the byomechanics of that forehand so well I'm sure you ore god wont have any problem hitting a forehand with Federer's standards. I'm sure you can hit the ball so hard and with so much precision. Well done, now you can go and play on the circuit.
Bocage let me tell you something. Tennis is a very simple sport. you can give names such millenium or Gallileu or whatever to your forehands or to your backhands that it wont change a thing. At the end of the day its just another forehand played naturally by some player. Like Sampras said about his forehand, " It just feels naturall "


Coaches living through the players results... I've seen it a lot. Were they really helping those players? Most of the times they were probably not.
This is one of the major reasons why the tennis coaches don't have a great reputation with the public in general.

By accepting that we are there only with those 10% is another reason why we should try to learn as much as we can and keep updated with all the new things happening in the tennis world. And that's why this site is really great!

"The only thing that I know is that I know nothing" (Socrates, Ancient Greece), so we better keep learning...

[shootermcmarc0]

Jeff,Sometimes it's nice just to vent. I try to be mature here but have been known to enjoy a fight over on the TennisWarehouse message boards from time to time...

John

So John, when do I take my racquet back?

[johnyandell]

Ha ha.

[robertlansdorp]

To Bocage From Robert Lansdorp

EDITORS NOTE:

Guys this is really Robert. OK I had to type it in the Forum for him, but this is verbatim off the FAX he sent me today.

John Yandell

Dear Bocage,

To me you sound like a young kid who is proud of his mentor, Heath Waters. You almost sound like you could be his son. I have never heard of Heath Waters, but that is probably my fault.

John Yandell is not claiming that he developed great champions. John has a great website that helps thousands of people.

Mister Bocage, I have to say you don't know much about me. I don't take credit for inventing any stroke. The term "reverse forehand" is my trademark name, but players have hit that forehand for many many years. Bill Tilden may have hit one.

All I am doing, Bocage, is bring attention to it, something everyone has discussed, often incorrectly, since Maria Sharapova won Wimbledon.

I don't take credit for the way Federer follows through, I just bring it to your attention. My advice to you is to try and relax and learn.

Regards,

Robert

[leis]

The greatness in a man is revealed in how he responds to his critics. Kudos to Yandell and Lansdorp.