The Myth of the Dog

[johnyandell]

Would love to discuss my latest article, "The Myth of the Dog!"

[seano]

John -

Excellent article, you fully and completely set up the problem of "pat the dog" as the key teaching point. You then further explain the proper swing mechanics with the keys being the set-up position of the the shoulder, arm, hand and racquet and the external/internal rotation of the shoulder. It has always killed me to hear teachers say "point your strings to the ground". So many people's forehands have had irreparable damage done with this horrible advise. As always, keep up the great work.

Sean

[bottle]

Everybody is going to have a different take even on an article as clear as this.

To me the forward arm rotation as seen in fourth video up from bottom (Roger in pink shirt) is rotation around the core.

Did everybody always understand that and I was the only confused one? Maybe or maybe not. In a forum post or maybe more than one Seano helped me understand this KIND of rotation.

Often, I think, I was trying to twist the arm or part of the arm or both as if the arm were an axle in a fixed Timken roller bearing as in a wheel of your car.

Sometime that might be what one wants but most of the time not.

Good shots can generate when shoulders starting forward can counter-rotate arm backward around the body and then sling it immediately forward around the body.

[stotty]

I think the article misses out something quite important in terms of the dog pat. The grip. I think once a player has a strong eastern grip or more, a certain degree of dog pat is far more likely. Sure there may be exceptions to this rule but, on average, the racket face is far more likely to be closed the more extreme the grip.

Back in the day, when grips were more moderate, players took the racket back on edge and brought it back forward on edge, give or take 5 or 10 degrees. Tiny racket heads might also have been a factor in my "on edge" theory because of dog pat would likely have played havoc with timing.

My question would be, can a player flip if the racket is NOT facing down to at least a significant degree? Face down has always been held up as critical position in the modern forehand. Can a player flip if the racket is on edge but is raised above the hand at the critical moment, as cited in a Don Budge clip in an earlier Tennisplayer article? My take is there is some flip but it's nowhere as good? Anyone care to comment on that?

But, yes, I thought it strange the article didn't raise the possible relation between grip and the degree of dog pat.

[seano]

John -

Wouldn't you say because Del Potro keeps his racquet face more on edge (with less "pat") that he has more forward racquet speed and less vertical racquet speed? Thus his forehand has less spin and is a flatter ball. He does hit it amazingly well.

Sean

[bottle]

John -

Wouldn't you say because Del Potro keeps his racquet face more on edge (with less "pat") that he has more forward racquet speed and less vertical racquet speed? Thus his forehand has less spin and is a flatter ball. He does hit it amazingly well.

Sean

Pretty good.

[ten1050]

This was an interesting article, however is there too much emphasis on what the arm is doing as opposed to what the lower body does? The legs and hips are the real engine that drives the groundstrokes. The arm simply transfers the power of the lower body into the racket and ultimately into the ball. Adults learning the game are generally preoccupied with what their arm is doing. They have the strength to manipulate the racket in an unproductive manner. Children, on the other hand, lack this arm strength and generally use their bodies more efficiently to hit the ball. All of the great players began playing at a very young age. I believe that young children develop better strokes because they are completely unaware of what their arm is doing. They use their lower body to propel the arm and racket.

Norman Ashbrooke

[bottle]

Right, no doubt, and a great lesson for us all.

[johnyandell]

Sean,
Not sure--outside my range of expertise.
Norman,
Big believer in the body. Huge component in preparation--coiling outside leg and torso.

[klacr]

Dog pat, pat the dog, dribble the basketball.
As someone who certifies tennis teaching professionals for the USPTA, which means observing lots of lessons, I've seen and heard it all. This is one of the most common phrases I hear, sadly.

Students will often times understand the concept but they still cannot achieve it our do it under duress. Which speaks volumes about its true effectiveness as a tool. Guess John got tired of hearing it just like I did. Thanks for setting us straight.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

STEPARATE...Step and Separate the Hands on the Racquet

Would love to discuss my latest article, "The Myth of the Dog!"

Dog pat, pat the dog, dribble the basketball.
As someone who certifies tennis teaching professionals for the USPTA, which means observing lots of lessons, I've seen and heard it all. This is one of the most common phrases I hear, sadly.

Students will often times understand the concept but they still cannot achieve it our do it under duress. Which speaks volumes about its true effectiveness as a tool. Guess John got tired of hearing it just like I did. Thanks for setting us straight.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Dog pat? Let's focus on "STEPARATE" instead...and finish your swing!

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov

I for one am all for boiling things down to its simplest terms when it comes to teaching tennis and this to me spells fundamentals. Here is half of it.

"Swing to the image of that position. You won't even know if you pat the dog, or how much. And it won't matter. But you will if you need to."

It doesn't get any simpler than this. Why muck it up? You can make it as simple or as complicated as you like.

The article itself is exactly what a good tennis article should be...food for thought. This one is a feast...there is a lot to be gleaned from it for any tennis teacher. No matter how experienced or inexperienced you are.

From Tilden to Federer you connect the dots and somewhere in between these two you will find tennisplayer.net and John Yandell who time and again correctly and efficiently guides the teacher in the process. Always fundamentally correct (FC)...well except perhaps in the case of the "swinging volley" (a little don_budge irony tossed in).

As for Roger...he is "The Living Proof" you know. It isn't that he is a great player...which is of course true. But more importantly is the technique and the seamless manner in which he plays the game. Does he "pat the dog"? Who cares says John Yandell...and of course he is right. But take a look at the video and consider this aspect of the swing.

When John posted the forehand of Alexander Zverev for a directly to the side view, I was struck by one singular aspect of his swing. This is where the tip of the racquet is tilted slightly forwards towards the opponents side of the net. If you can get the student to have a light hold of the racquet neck with the left hand and get them to number one tilt the racquet head slightly forwards while at the same time number two get them to set their "strings to the wall" with the right elbow slightly away from the body you will find that if you take John's simple statement there will be a dog pat or whatever you wish to call it.

In the video with 37 clicks of the right arrow key we get to a point where Roger's hand leaves the throat of his racket and it is no coincidence that his left foot is off of the ground and poised to step to the ball. I have invented another word here that cracks my Swedish speaking students up...STEPARATE.

It's two words actually. Step...while separating the hands. This occurs sometime around the time the ball is bouncing...as evidenced by the video. More living proof. Click four more times (41 clicks from the beginning) and you will see what I mean about the strings to the wall. Look at The Maestro's strings...they are directly on the wall. I actually have my students left hand on the racquet at this point to train them to keep the left side of the body engaged in the swing. Now I merely say to them..."strings to the wall" and they all jump into position perpendicular to the net with their left hands controlling the racquet head and their strings directly on the wall, right elbow slightly away from the body. They are standing on the baseline and now I have them move back to the fence without crossing their feet. Now they are moving forwards to the service line...now back again. I do it with them...I get winded and have to catch my breath.

I almost forgot...10 more clicks and voila. He's patting Puntzie. Pat the dog. I love that little guy. Good Puntzie! He adores me too!

Next I line them all on the center service line and in a line back to the baseline. Now they are shuffling or skipping backwards with their strings "to the wall" as if to run around their backhand on their backhand sideline and they take a swing. Then they are running forwards to the other sideline on the other side of the court and take a swing. You can very effectively run in this position so that once you arrive at the ball...you are in position to STEPARATE...and swing. When releasing the racquet with the left hand...the left hand goes directly to the wall...and step to the ball.

The funny thing is that I don't say a word about patting the dog and oddly enough I don't have too. Somehow they all manage something of the sort and the thing seems to sort itself out quite naturally. This is the natural motion that the body will dictate the thing to happen as Norman suggests. The kinetic chain. The comment of Yandell's seals the deal...if they begin in the position of "strings to the wall" and finish the thing...what have you got? I am amazed at the forehands this is producing.

I am only a student of the game...but I just so happen to be a teacher. From Zverev to Federer...courtesy of tennisplayer.net.

Awesome piece of work...particularly taken in it's totality. Thanks John...I wish that I could just shake your hand.

[johnyandell]

Maybe some day DB! Thanks for the good words.

[nemo1965]

Good read. What amazes me also about all the tennis-instruction and all new Holy Grail of the Stroke is the total negligence of the bounce of the ball.

Yeah. Indeed. Remember the ball? That it bounces? And not the same time all time? If the ball bounces low, you going have a totally different form of your stroke (and other grip, and other foot-position, and other hip rotation etc etc). If the ball bounces hip-level you have another stroke. And if it bounces above your shoulders... etc etc etc.

Take Del Potro. Why is he able to hit so flat? Because most players hit with tremendous topspin, which bounces head high for most players. But for Del Potro is 6 foot 4. Most of those balls bounce up - for him - at shoulder level. Which means?

Exactly.

I think a lot of instruction would improve tremendously if the pupils consciously train at: where is the ball going to bounce on my side of the court? Where am I and where am I going to be? How high is the ball going to bounce? What does that mean for my preparation, my position and my choice of stroke?

[bman]

It's the grip.

[arturohernandez]

Great read! I watched a junior match the other day in which one of the players was seeing what the pros did and then was trying to do it consciously. He kept trying to whip the ball and would put his racket facing down before he hit the ball. This worked great on some balls. He would hit big forehands.

On other balls, they would go too low or he would miss. As the match progressed he started getting tighter and tighter and was trying to whip his racket consciously.

He lost in a third set tiebreak. His opponent was a lanky loose player that has some serious whip and consistency on all his strokes.

If only the one who lost could have learned to hit a basic shot.

It never occurred to him that he could simply loosen his grip and it might happen on its own.

I have literally experimented with such a loose grip that the edge of the palm of my hand is the only thing that I feel is pushing the ball forward.

On these shots there appears to be no effort and yet my son has told me that they had extra topspin and I can see them spinning all the way to the back fence.

I have John's old visual tennis book that I bought on Amazon very cheap a couple of years ago.

This article is more modern but just as effective.

But not too modern.

I hate video "articles" because I can't skim to the parts I want.

The embedded clips are more than enough in this written version.

Thank you John!