Radical Body rotation...An Illusion??

[evikshin]

Hi John,

After spending hours watching videos of the top players, I discovered one thing--Radical body rotation is a bit of an illusion.

It appears that those who start off more rotated, don't necessarily have larger degree of rotation back into the ball at impact.

Let me explain...

What I mean is that when we look at a player like Federer, he starts off with his body super closed, and ends up with his body closed (about 45 degrees?) at impact.

A player like Rusedki appears to start off less closed (at the trophy position), but ends up pretty much square at impact.

So it would appear that both have the same amount of body rotation into the ball, from trophy position to impact.

It also appears that Federer's racquet (as well as that of Lleyton Hewitt--who also uses radical body rotation) takes an oblique path, following through more to the right, as opposed to straight through. This is evident watching him serve on the Deuce court, standing behind. It appears he pronates off to the right, though to slightly lesser degree when trying to flatten it out.

Whereas Rusedski swings more towards the net--this would complement being more square to the net at impact.

I find that having a more rotated like Federer at the trophy position naturally gives me a top spin-oriented serve. If I throw the ball to the left, and just let everything flow, I follow through to the right, and hit a nice kick serve. In fact, just about every serve I hit has some sort of spin, depending on the toss, pronation, etc.

Only thing is, when I try to really smack the ball, my body over rotates to try to get to square at impact, and when you start from a closed position, its very hard to get back to square--Pete doesn't even do it, and he's Gumbi reincarnate.

So so me, it would appear that utilizing radical body rotation gives you consistency, but less power, because it changes the path of the racquet and promotes more of a glancing blow, as opposed to purely square hit (which would be the racquet following through in the same direction as where the ball is going).

What do you think of my analysis? Am I totally missing the point?

Also, how can one generate more power when the swing path is left to right, as opposed to being in the same direction as the ball (that is, following through towards where the ball is headed)??

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Evan

[johnyandell]

Evan,

Interesting theory. But there are other factors that make it more complicated than you think.

First, Rusedski has a pinpoint stance, so the more open body position at the contact can't be totally attributed to torso rotation. Roddick for example starts open like you say, but is quite closed at contact. Very similar to Sampras or Federer.

Second, even if it were true that they were rotating the same amount, the timing of the position at contact and the position of the torso are different, and I think this makes a big difference.

Starting open and turning away to square or a little past isn't the same as starting square and turning away further. The guys with the most rotation are Sampras and Mac--they have the platform stance that facilitates this. Henman is another.
Look at Haas as another example of a player where the pin point comes into play and reduced the rotation and effects position at contact.

I think you are a little further off with the other comment. In the high speed footage we shot comparing Sampras and Rusedski it was the reverse of what you said. Sampras goes much more through the line of the shot--this explains that high elbow position--Rusdeski goes across.

I also wouldn't equate being square with pace. In fact it's probably the opposite. Sampras had a heavier ball (More total racket speed). People told me in practic sometimes he'd serve 140mph plus for fun. He also had a higher lifetime serving percentage than Greg. But the path of the swing is related much more to ball position and type of spin than stance.

[evikshin]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply.

Very interesting about the pinpoint stance. I forgot to take that into consideration--definitely plays a big role in being more open at impact, especially when rusedki brings his back foot to the side of the front foot, as opposed to behind it. Lleyton Hewitt, in my opinion looks remarkably like Sampras (with the amount of upper body rotation), and is closed at impact, and maybe this is because his pinpoint stance has the foot behind the front foot. What do you think?


Also, when you say

Second, even if it were true that they were rotating the same amount, the timing of the position at contact and the position of the torso are different, and I think this makes a big difference.

Are you referring to the differences in the torso due to the toss?

As for being more square and having more pace as a result: I read this in an article by Heath Waters (from the "other" tennis site) where he states that Roddick's power came from being more square at impact, facing the net, than Sampras. He also had some accompanying pics of Roddick at impact. Its interesting because some videos show him closed, as you say, and some show him more open. Perhaps the perspective is playing tricks on my eyes.

I played varsity tennis for a division three school (not too impressive, I know ) and my forehand and serve has always been my weakness.

I read your article on the myth of the wrist, and my forehand changed for the better overnight.

However, as for the serve: I stubbornly tried pressing on with a pinpoint stance, because psychologically it felt more powerful (like I was pushing forward).

However, the past month I really worked hard on the racquet drop as well as the platform stance, and hitting up more rather than in. My serve isn't as hard, but is more consistent.

I have a video of it that I'm dying to show you. but its like 25 MB, and it won't send. any suggestions for compressing it? I'm bad with technology.

Warmly,

Evan

[johnyandell]

I think to really understand the torso position you have to look at high speed video with more than 30 frames/second.

Actually we are adding some Roddick video in high speed next month. But go back and look at the Roddick serve articles. Think that will show you something. I'll have to respectfully disagree with Heath on this one. If you only look in 30 frames you will probably make some errors.

As for your serve why don't you burn me a CD and send it for Your Strokes?
The info on where to send it is on the Your Strokes page.

[evikshin]

Cool I will try to get you a movie of my serve as soon as possible!

Evan

PS: in the mean time, I find that it is easier and more natural to serve on the ad court than on the deuce court. I feel that I need to overrotate on the fore-swing on the deuce court to hit the ball out wide (I'm right handed).
Is this related to my starting alignment? should I stand slightly more open on the deuce than on the ad court? I will make movies of the two different serves.


A

[johnyandell]

There is more rotation, but I wouldn't call it over rotation. It's part of the whole wide serve extra spin deal. You can open up the stance a little but I wouldn't totally lose the sideways body position.

[evikshin]

John, I've actually been using a Cannon PowerShot SD400 digital camera to film myself. Though its a bit lacking in the frame department, it does allow me monitor, toss, knee bend, elbow drop, body rotation, foot work etc.

Would it be okay if I sent you those movies via email? Or would you prefer that I get a sports camera and send you a burnt CD via mail?

I'm extremely excited to show you my serve, as I think I'm very close to consolidating the advanced techniques (deep elbow drop, body rotation, toss to the left).

I've also found an easy way to hit the wide serve on the deuce court. Its so easy its almost brain dead. What I do is I toss the ball closer to my body. That is, the toss is in the same place as the flat serve when viewed from behind, but just not as far in front of me. From there, I focus on hitting the right side of the ball with a rising racket face, and pronating hard to the right.
When I do it properly, I get a ball with heavy slice spin that lands just short of the side T for an instant ace. Its probably only travelling 70 mph, but the angle is too acute to return.

I also confirmed via camera that I'm able to sustain the extreme body rotation and use my hand, and not my shoulders to control the ball. Its a radically different feeling doing this. I think a lot of players try to muscle the ball by forcing their shoulders open. By keeping my shoulders more closed, I find the serve to be much more effortless, and to be heavier as well.

However, do you think my method for the wide serve is sound technique? Or should I focus on keeping the toss exactly the same on ALL serves?

Sincerely,

Evan
PS: I've only been a member of your site for a week now but I must say that without your site, my serve might never have escaped from Hell, so to speak.

[johnyandell]

Evan,

Yeah that footage isn't going to be useful for me, so by all means get hold of a better camera and then send it in.

I have no idea what you are talking about on the tosss and the wide serve to be honest, but if you do send in some video we can take a look.

John Yandell

[evikshin]

By the way John,

Is there a way I can upload a temporary video of my serve on this website, since I'm still in the hunt for a true sports camera?

Even though the movie is on digitial camera, a lot of the key positions are visible (such as racquet drop, etc.) Plus I took it from directly behind myself.

Its 26 MB. Is there a way to do that here??

I'm dying to get ur feed back on it.

warmly

evan

[johnyandell]

Now you put it up somewhere else and post the link here though. Can't guarantee I have the time to give it a full analysis. If you want that though you can send it in for Your Strokes.

[evikshin]

Hi John

Here is the link to the video (i apologize for it being sideways--i couldn't figure out a way to fix it) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywbbypy-HCg

I would love for you to have seen the racquet drop in slow mo--in my eyes, it looks pretty darn close to the pros. I guess we can't do that on youtube.com. In any case, I will eventually send you a full series of videos.

warmly,

Evan