Interactive Forum July 2017: Agnieszka Radwanska Groundstrokes

[bottle]

On the Road to Agi-scissors

All confidence.

1) Do 20 double racket baton twirls. Those are where you put a second racket in your hitting hand, handle butt against handle butt to extend the length of your racket by two. Twirl the new implement thus created sideways toward right fence, back toward left fence-- twirl-twirl. The arm is bent at a right angle.

2) Do 40 of the same bent arm twirl-twirls but with only one racket in your hand.

3) Do 10 more of the twirl-twirls but with nothing in your hand other than a pen or pencil.

4) Try the twirls in all different directions.

Now you've got the end frames for the Agi-scissor, a shot inspired by the Agnieszka Radwanska forehand but not a slavish imitation-- not in any way.

Every Roger Federer forehand begins with one of the twirls only with two hands on the racket. Agi-Rad begins hers the same way. But one hand on the racket like an actual baton twirler is good enough for me.

At the same time the left hand can be pointing radically across at side fence to help wind the bod around as much as you want.

A twirl in one direction starts this new forehand. A twirl in the opposite direction concludes it. Now we have the end frames and need only supply the painting in between.

We lose a bit of simplicity while gaining depth of backswing if we add arm extension at the elbow during second half of the opening twirl.

Now hitting arm is pointed slightly downward and we're ready to sweep the court forward as if with a push broom. If we're late or early enough with our footwork, the oncoming ball will be at desired height almost like a cobweb on the court.

If the ball is high, I'm going to choose another shot.

The forward sweep includes the scissoring of arm back to a right angle and a further lowering of bod related to forward rotation of hips combined with lowering of right knee.

I'm thinking of a neutral stance forehand here, but open and semi-open versions work well too as demonstrated by Agnieszka in the films.

WE SYNTHETIC STROKE MAKERS MAY NOT WIN AS MUCH BUT WE HAVE MORE FUN. (And we win enough-- ask my guys.)

[bottle]

Report Card

You put something out there. It looks good on paper, then in print, then in self-feed.

You start next to play with the new stroke in doubles, and it is not a success. The Agi-scissor, as I have outlined it, is not an immediate success.

But what is the moral of this story? That one shouldn't be overly influenced by a flashy looking shot? That one shouldn't invent? That one should always stick to one's most natural shots no matter how ill-formed?

Well, some of the time one should. But shouldn't one give the Agi-scissor more of a shake?

Doubles is arrhythmic after all. And experienced players who know one's game are good at creating awkward situations for one when one is decidedly not using the most effective of all of one's available shots.

Moreover, any new shot needs time to settle in.

Perhaps a player who uses delayed weight transfer should never try to follow the more attenuated weight transfer of Stan Smith's dictum "the weight is where the racket is."

Perhaps the two opposing methods can never co-habit in the same player.

But I shall stick with the Agi-scissor a bit more.

The next experiment shall be more slavish imitation of the way Agi separates her hands and when. Maybe that will make the difference.

And notice how the left hand goes around bod and then crabs back. That is an effort to stop bod rotation to make racket accelerate, no?

[bottle]

Impossible

First we take a look at Don Budge and Ellsworth Vines forehands to see if they truncate their follow throughs like Agi.

(https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...DBFHFront1.mov)
(https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...DBFHFront2.mov)
(https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...l?DBFHRear.mov)
(http://www.britishpathe.com/workspac...is-Finals/full)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcY4pkX5GC8)

Second we take a look at Agi's arms to see if she scissors them in simultaneity or sequence.

Third we try to put this information together, which is impossible.

Fourth we ask whether Agi and Ellie and Don scissor their left arm to stop bod so elbow flies toward net or to accelerate bod (an opposite idea!) like Nancy Kerrigan or Oksana Baul pulling in her arms.

Fifth we go back to bed.

[bottle]

Very interesting strokes. It seems like this approach worked very well since she made it to the upper echelons of women's tennis. But I think it is built on taking time away from the opponent and moving them around. Against Serena this will not work well because she can just tee off on shots. If Agi were to take a bigger backswing then she would have less control but more power. Personally, I don't like the shortness of the forward swing. It seems gimmicky. But that gimmick has taken her a long way so who am I to judge.

Tennis is gimmicky.

[bottle]

Purpose

It helps to have a purpose. Even an extremely detached discussion of some tour player's forehand, perhaps aesthetic and vaguely practical, may be not enough of a purpose. The talk becomes more real when you decide to eschew all duck-billed platitudes and put the bundle of ideas that comprise any given tennis stroke to work (or not to work) for yourself.

So now we're at the point with our Agi-scissor forehand where hands separate with strings just in front of one's eyes.

A huge breaststroke takes place in which both arms get long like a tightrope walker's baton thus helping one hold what we hope is perfect balance.

There is a seeming duplication of function in this by the two arms; but, in fact, the front arm goes farther in describing a broad circle in which one "smooths the waters" to use Tom Okker's phrase.

The hitting arm meanwhile merely gets straight, pointing down. Both hands now are way out.

I like to imagine that forward hips turn begins at that precise point thus moving both hands one inch or more.

Both elbows may or may not come in. Certainly the left elbow in Agi's case appears to do so. At the same time both elbows bend to bring both hands in, which means that the already started hips turn will accelerate.

At the same time, just to make sure, the right knee plunges down like a piston.

One lowers to the finish with a racket twirl.

One could instead extend the arm from the elbow out toward the net to help one lose balance.

But why do that? The ball is already hit, and balance is a good thing.

P.S. This stroke pattern appears efficient for hitting crosscourt short angles among other shots.

[arturohernandez]

For some reason I never liked Agi's strokes. She seems like a pusher who is just keeping the ball in. I prefer to see attacking tennis. And by that I mean even Agassi style attacking which can be done from the backcourt.

But not everyone is Agassi or Serena. So I admire her for doing what she could and taking it as far as possible.

I think playing around with different things makes sense. But everyone is physically different so I wonder how far our imitation of a particular player will take us.

But there is value to playing around things. Isn't that how Andy Roddick ended up with his serve?

[bottle]

For some reason I never liked Agi's strokes. She seems like a pusher who is just keeping the ball in. I prefer to see attacking tennis. And by that I mean even Agassi style attacking which can be done from the backcourt.

But not everyone is Agassi or Serena. So I admire her for doing what she could and taking it as far as possible.

I think playing around with different things makes sense. But everyone is physically different so I wonder how far our imitation of a particular player will take us.

But there is value to playing around things. Isn't that how Andy Roddick ended up with his serve?

Yes. And there is a certain smugness among accomplished players about invention of any kind. And it extends to a hacker who tries to imitate a tour player whom he admires. Someone like Jonas Bjorkman is an exception. He once tried to imitate every aspect of Roger Federer's forehand and felt he really had it figured out.

But got no result. What a lesson! And a worthwhile one.

The beautiful animals on the tour are mostly excluded from lessons like that. They go with what got them on the tour. And if something goes wrong and they don't have someone right there to tell them what to do, e.g., tour technician Ben Ford, they quit and go into Real Estate.

That is why I am proud to be a hacker. Hackers read golf magazines in dental offices and always seem to have more time or space for following new models and ideas-- whoops, we're talking tennis. And no one certainly knows, Mr. Hernandez, "how far our imitation of a particular player will take us." From probably having done this more than you have I would say, "Depends on player physique, yes, but also on who the model is. Some can be imitated to better effect than others. Some you wouldn't want to fool with (Roddick). But thousands if not millions of players have been helped by trying to imitate Ken Rosewall's slice." I'm quite sure that was the most valuable imitation I ever did but only could arrive there by trial and by error. And my slice is different from Rosewall's for sure. But my partners and opponents all think it a very good shot. Well, I acquired it, for whatever it is worth, by trying to imitate Rosewall.

I think you are right to admire Agi for doing what she could and taking it as far as possible but detect just a little condescension in that. Because I know she is not a pusher. I've taken the trouble to learn enough about her forehand to realize that she really hits the ball and does not push it. And is rather beautiful in doing it. And has huge upsets in her record including over some of the big bashers you cite. Weight transfer is early as in a Peter Burwash advised forehand but some weight still spills over. She gains consistency from not delaying weight transfer like Ellsworth Vines. And once you've hit one or two of these shots really well you realize that there is more potential there even if you plan to rely on other forehands in your game. (Later, who knows, you might change your mind!)

Where we differ: I love Agi's forehand. Where we agree: I dislike Agi's backhand. It's a two-hander-- ugh!

[stotty]

I think you are right to admire Agi for doing what she could and taking it as far as possible but detect just a little condescension in that. Because I know she is not a pusher. I've taken the trouble to learn enough about her forehand to realize that she really hits the ball and does not push it. And is rather beautiful in doing it. And has huge upsets in her record including over some of the big bashers you cite.

Where we differ: I love Agi's forehand. Where we agree: I dislike Agi's backhand. It's a two-hander-- ugh!

I know what arturohernandez means. Agi is a bit of a Steady Eddie, or at least one feels that is certainly her intention. Compared to many women on the tour she is slenderly built and a little underpowered. When she first had success on the tour many likened her to Hingis. She is nowhere as good as that but you can see how people jumped to the similarity. Hingis was outstanding. She had an uncanny overview of matches and was never once myopic. She adjusted her game, or not, depending who was in front of her and what she had to tackle. She was quite brilliant and probably the finest female player ever.

[bottle]

Steadiness is Bad?

I distrust the notion that Agi's steadiness is what annoys some people. The people most annoyed, of course, are her opponents, but I mean people who will never play against her yet inexplicably are annoyed by her.

We're all taught to value steadiness over power, so steadiness can't be it.

No, I think the secret source of the annoyance is her scissoring during her forehand.

You're just not supposed to do that. Nor are you supposed to extend your arm from the elbow while hitting a tennis ball. That habit belongs to an older time.

I think players should learn to scissor, extend and do neither almost from the very beginning.

[1alexander]

Looks to me like she has an eating disorder however I'm not impressed with her forehand technique.

[bottle]

Looks to me like she has an eating disorder however I'm not impressed with her forehand technique.

Nor I with your mental state.

[bottle]

Looks to me like she has an eating disorder however I'm not impressed with her forehand technique.

The part of this double-diss having to do with anorexia is interesting. Perhaps when an athlete works as hard as this one, she comes to look a bit like a svelte string-bean.

This reminds me of when a certain mother of one of our championship eight-oared crew's oarswomen objected to Katie training so much. Katie, who was number six and captain, just ignored her mother.

The mother's argument was that Katie would develop huge muscles and no man would want her. In fact, Katie's muscles, like all the muscles in that crew, nick-named by me the coach as "The Pulchra-Crew," just got tight without the increase in muscle mass that occurs in men of a certain type.

Katie, like the other seven rowers in the crew, just grew more beautiful.

I do admit to a certain haunted look, however, in Agi's eyes.

[1alexander]

Bottle I don't appreciate you criticising my mental state. We are all entitled to our opinion even if we don't agree You talk so much crap on here yet I don't criticise your mental state.

[don_budge]

bottle is the self appointed moral authority here on the forum alexander1. If you or others are not compliant with his moral scheme of things...I have been reprimanded many times with the term Nazi, misogynist, racist, bigot among other choice terms...he will follow up with a most inappropriate label. bottle has even seen fit to bring the feelings and attitudes of my wife into play through the words that I speak. But he can do that...he is bottle.

The rest of us here on the forum welcome your thoughts without any pretentious form of judgement. Your posts were well intentioned and certainly were only observations you made through your eyes. Certainly nothing you wrote revealed anything wrong with your mental state.

[10splayer]

Bottle I don't appreciate you criticising my mental state. We are all entitled to our opinion even if we don't agree You talk so much crap on here yet I don't criticise your mental state.

Don't worry about it. Bottle is a gaping A-Hole.