Scratch your back....

[gzhpcu]

The dated advice to "scratch your back" on the serve, perhaps was not so bad after all. The idea is to get the elbow high after the trophy position for a better racket drop. Of course, partially misleading since the racket does not drop behind the back, but to the side. Still, I can see where they were coming from. Thoughts?

[seano]

Scratching your back on the serve is NOT a good idea. The elbow should stay in alignment with the shoulders for the cartwheel or shoulder over shoulder movement. The alignment of the shoulder to elbow (4th link) should stay at about 90 degrees to the side of the body. If it doesn't, it increases the likelihood of injury and decreases the range of motion the arm has to generate power.

[stotty]

The dated advice to "scratch your back" on the serve, perhaps was not so bad after all. The idea is to get the elbow high after the trophy position for a better racket drop. Of course, partially misleading since the racket does not drop behind the back, but to the side. Still, I can see where they were coming from. Thoughts?

For me this is the worst advice possible....or at least advice that can go horribly wrong. Often the students will try and do just that....scratch their back. The result is a racket way too close to the body. Fluidity is completely lost.

Some myths can work...this one rarely does.

[gzhpcu]

Actually, I do not agree. I know many do not agree with Mark Papas, but on this point I agree with him (from his site)

"The back scratch metaphor developed to help you drop the racket down behind the back in a tear drop fashion to avoid placing the racket in the dreaded waiter's tray position, photo right. After you do the racket "down and up" part too often the hand lays back, leaving the racket face facing up like a waiter's tray, instead of moving to place the racket down behind your back (more later).

The racket never touches the back on the way down or up. And there is absolutely no way this metaphor developed to help you swing up on the serve because everyone knows that swinging up is similar to throwing a ball. That's the metaphor we use for the upward stroke, UP like throwing a ball. What would you say to the student to avoid the waiter's tray problem, "salute" with the racket? Gimme a break."

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12_4.html

[don_budge]

Actually, I do not agree. I know many do not agree with Mark Papas, but on this point I agree with him (from his site)

I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree..I agree...I do not agree...I agree...I do not agree.

Saving the best for last...we can agree to disagree. I certainly am glad I never said that.

[johnyandell]

I used to believe it! Even modeled it in the pictures in my first book. Til I had actual hs video. Mark perpetrated a lot of bad ideas with a vengeance and without evidence. Here is Roger. The racket shaft is on a diagonal at the alleged backscratch position and nowhere near the back physically. The racket is on it's way the real key position aligned with the right side of the torso. But whatever helps get you to the real key... if it does...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

[gzhpcu]

I hate reviving old threads, but I feel that the “scratch your back” helps you get a high elbow (when you start to drop - not the trophy position) which helps getting a good tacket drop. To get the racket to,the side, just supinate ypur arm. Seems that “scratch your back combined with arm supination” shoild result in a correct motion.

[seano]

Again, I strongly disagree. My reasons are at the beginning of the thread.

[gzhpcu]

We are talking about two different things: https://youtu.be/yarQniCJyuU
this is what I mean

[seano]

It's the phrase "scratch your back" that I disagree with. To me, none of the pro's in the video were scratching their back. The shoulder's were in alignment with the elbow and they were performing the "shoulder over shoulder" or cartwheel motion.

[gzhpcu]

It is not purely scratching the back, it is going as if to scratch the back but then supinating which places the racket to the side.

[don_budge]

I've always liked "scratch your back". While it may not be absolutely air tight...it definitely "serves" its purpose nicely.

[bottle]

It is not purely scratching the back, it is going as if to scratch the back but then supinating which places the racket to the side.

Why not supinate by right foot or maybe from trophy position-- at least some of the time-- as simplification?

[arturohernandez]

But doesn't the racket drop on its own if we lift it above our heads. Also wouldn't just a throwing motion work to help create the right feel.

Scratching the back makes people focus on the racket which is very hard to control.

It's much easier to just alternate throwing and serving. Maybe even use an American Football and then mix in serves.

Eventually, the two motions blend together and start to create a serve.

I see so much explicit instruction on the serve and it almost always has some other bad consequence unless a very seasoned pro (like John!) is there to guide a person toward additional adjustments.

There is the windmill exercise from John that I think works much better!

[bottle]

But doesn't the racket drop on its own if we lift it above our heads. Also wouldn't just a throwing motion work to help create the right feel.

Scratching the back makes people focus on the racket which is very hard to control.

It's much easier to just alternate throwing and serving. Maybe even use an American Football and then mix in serves.

Eventually, the two motions blend together and start to create a serve.

I see so much explicit instruction on the serve and it almost always has some other bad consequence unless a very seasoned pro (like John!) is there to guide a person toward additional adjustments.

There is the windmill exercise from John that I think works much better!

Or the figure eights of tennischiro. But I want a lot more detail about the intricacy of serving, in particular for persons who are not flexible enough in the shoulder to get the racket tip sufficiently low. This is a whole subset of the world's servers.

The model I've been recently using is on page 30 of a great book, PANCHO SEGURA'S CHAMPIONSHIP STRATEGY (1976). It's first and foremost line drawings. There is some commentary by the man himself, but any complexity you might see in forum posts here should be blamed on me if blame you must.

But I ask, have you ever heard Don Sutton or Mike Mussina explain pitching or Ted Williams or Charley Law hitting in baseball?. A profusion of detail. Does this mean that Ted Williams was a bad hitter?

I dismiss out of hand all the rejection of detail in tennis instruction. Sure the detail is terrible if one gets stuck in it. But most players won't push their way through to the other side, which could include simple exercises, cardio training with never a word pertaining to technique and the whole raft of anti-intellectual teaching in modern tennis.

Sure, use all that stuff later after you've figured something out. A good player could become a great player. I'm not kidding. Too much tennis instruction is narrow-minded and dismissive and glib.

Pancho Segura is a little guy who could achieve perfectly vertical extension with both his body and his racket straight and high high up. He writes in the book that he never could do this if he didn't make a full circle of the racket first.

Next thing for a player like me who wants to try this idea is to figure out exactly what the circle is to which he refers. I've tried to do that recently at "A New Year's Serve."

Yeah, yeah, I know, just throw the racket as far as you can as Tilden suggests. Or do it inside and nearly kill Serena the way Venus did.