Salzy Killer Serve

[johnyandell]

Interactive Forum:

Here are 4 Flash animations of Jeff's serve, each with a freeze frame at a key moment. What do you see--or don't see?


Coiling and Knee Bend




Racket Drop



Contact



Pronation

[jeffreycounts]

Now that's a beautiful serve. Wow!

[gzhpcu]

Very nice serve, the only thing I seem to be missing, is pronation after impact. The racket face does not turn out. Any thoughts on this John?

[johnyandell]

Phil,

Funny you should mention that. Last night couldn't get all the files to load but now check out the bottom set.

John

[kurtvanhook]

feet

Jeff's back foot (left foot) stays on the ground, Federer-like, prior to swing. This is unlike the forward mini-step of the back foot (see JC Ferrero's, Roddicks and Hewitt's back foot 'step-up' movement.

John, do you think this is a significant/meaningful technical difference between these world class servers, or is it perhaps simply one of those personalized, ritual movements with little effect?

Kurt

[johnyandell]

Yes it's a difference, and in my opinion preferable. It's a change Jeff made, along with Roddick and Taylor Dent. Read the Myth of the Pinpoint in Advanced Tennis section.

[shootermcmarc0]

that guy has an awesome serve

[gzhpcu]

thanks for adding the additional videos, now there is pronation. Great serve: leg kick, throwing hips forward, full backswing, full extension at impact, keeping head up, in short, wow!

[JullietteRogers]

John,

Is this motion a good model for all players, or maybe just men? What do you think of the changes in Henin-Hardenne's serve?

JR

[gzhpcu]

If you are an athletic woman, I would think it is a good model. After all, Brenda Schultz served at 130 mph, and she had a great kick serve too....

[johnyandell]

I think the average player, man or woman can try for all of these elements, though maybe some of them in less degree.

I've taught high school girls motion on this model. Some version of platform stance. But not as an extreme on the starting stance and less body turn.

Knee bend appropriate to strength. Full racket drop. Good extension. Ball slightly to the left for "weight."

but very few people put it together like Jeff.

Justine has all these elements plus that new abbreviated backswing motion. Not 100% sure what it means for her. I need to study it closer.

[mdhubert]

Knee bend/body bow

Is Jeff's serve his main weapon ?
His motion looks awesome but I was wondering about its efficiency in match play. I guess he's deadly on the ad court against righties...

About Jeff's knee bend: I read on www.revolutionarytennis.com that the knee bend is less important than the bow position of the left side of the body (for a right handed). The guy on the site wrote that for example Henman, who has a deep knee bend, could have maximised his serve with a better bowing position. It seems that Jeff has both. What do you think John ?

[johnyandell]

Jeff's serve is his main weapon and he has been able to use it consistently with higher serving percentages as the shape evolves. His biggest problem has been staying completely healthy--and the fact that there are about 200 guys out there at any given time who are incredible players. In the last 2-3 years, he's beaten Tursinov, Yuri Novak, Verdasco, Justin Gimelstob, Paul Goldstein, and a few others I'm forgetting.

All strokes start with ground reaction forces and so the knee bend is pretty important in my view. It's been claimed it contributes 10-20% of overall power and also reduces the load on the shoulder. My own observation is that the players with the heavier serves and a topspin component tend to have a deeper knee bend.


I have not been on the site you mentioned or read the argument about the "bow" there, so I can't comment specifically on what is said there. But I have heard the argument from other coaches and players. I've filmed a few players who tried to "create" this and they tended to lean back at the waist. If the knees bend and the tossing arm extends, the "shape" of the body should be fine automatically. If anything players should strive to stay as straight up and down in the torso as possible.

[forehand]

Forward momentum vs balance

Great serve!

I'm wondering if you can shed some light on an issue regarding the compromise between forward momentum and balance after the serve John?

I'll try to explain what I'm thinking about:

Is Jeff a natural serve an volley player (or would he be if the times were different)? The reason for asking is that he seems to be carrying a lot of forward momentum into the court.

Now, this may be a good thing for approaching the net. It would also, I presume, add some speed to the serve.

The con is obviously that it is harder to regain balance and keep a good stable posture after the serve and thus being ready for the return. In one of the videos we see his left foot coming around in an effort to stabilise.

If we use Federer as a model (going by John's excellent analysis), he seems to carry less momentum into the court. Federer would probably serve a little faster if he threw himself more into the court, but would it necesessarily be better? From an overall perspective on playing points, that is, not the serve alone. After all, he is almost always perfectly balanced.

Roddick would be an expample of a player who carries more forward momentum, I guess, and he sometimes seems to be off balance (or still recovering) when faced with deep returns.

It is a trade off, I guess, anyone have any thoughts on how to strike a balance here?

Fred

[stroke]

I don't think one can overemphasize what John said about the incredible level of play in men's tennis, when he said at any given time there are about 200 guys out there. I watched Youzhny defeat Nadal in the round of 8 at the US Open, and he just plain controlled the match with his groundstrokes, and his ranking is in the low 50's. Nadal was in form, he was playing his game, and it was just not good enough. I have never seen anyone do what he did to Nadal, hitting about 50 winners. More surprising to me was the way that when Nadal hit that heavy forehand crosscourt to Youzhny's one-handed backhand, implementing the stratery/pattern that he has used successfully against Federer, Youzhny was still controlling the rallies. There are certainly no easy matches at any round in men's tennis.

In response to Forehand's question about finishing posture on the serve, where someone like Fed seems to have less forward/ more upwards push, I would say that is not something to really key on. I do personally prefer Roger's relaxed/upright finish, though, to Roddick's more violent finish.