Cocking, Loading, and the Back Foot

[johnyandell]

Let's get your thoughts on Dr. Ben Kibler and "Cocking, Loading, and the Back Foot"

[johnyandell]

Surprised there hasn't been comment here. So I will add mine--very interesting to see the exact role of the back foot push. Great job by Ben explaining it. I had never considered it's effect on the back hip and how that might effect everything else. Even wrote to Bruce Elliot asking for further clarification!

[stotty]

Surprised there hasn't been comment here. So I will add mine--very interesting to see the exact role of the back foot push. Great job by Ben explaining it. I had never considered it's effect on the back hip and how that might effect everything else. Even wrote to Bruce Elliot asking for further clarification!

Yes I was surprised about the effect of the back hip also. It was something I had never considered and was never going to in a hundred years. That's what I like about biomechanists is they enlighten us no end. I also thought the observation that platform provides better/easier rotation than pinpoint was interesting. The position of the rear heel - whether elevated or not - is also something I had never considered. So there is a lot to glean from Ben's video article. I recommend all on the forum watch it.

[bottle]

Seems to me the amount that rear hip ought to rise higher than front hip can be either small or large and still be effective. See this amount (logically expressed in the symbol ">" for "greater than") as varying in direct proportion with the amount of flexibility available for humeral twist.

[seano]

Dr. Elliott emphasizes rear hip over front hip but says only to the extend that it sets up the more important shoulder over shoulder!! Remember there are 3 movements of the trunk axis 1) shoulder over shoulder 2) twist axis - opens up too early and leads to Dr. Kibler's pull down effect 3) forward bend of the trunk. All 3 movements occur but shoulder over shoulder doesn't occur the whole time, it leads to twist axis and trunk extension and flexion thru contact.

[bottle]

Dr. Elliott emphasizes rear hip over front hip but says only to the extend that it sets up the more important shoulder over shoulder!! Remember there are 3 movements of the trunk axis 1) shoulder over shoulder 2) twist axis - opens up too early and leads to Dr. Kibler's pull down effect 3) forward bend of the trunk. All 3 movements occur but shoulder over shoulder doesn't occur the whole time, it leads to twist axis thru contact.

I like this and will try it (although I already have tried various versions of it) but wonder where scapular slingshot fits into the equation. And think that too much shoulder over shoulder is unhealthy and doesn't keep arm "behind" one as well. (I must have gotten that from Bollettieri's "serve doctor.")

But am suspicious of all sport scientists and teaching pros thanks to my belief that they are thoroughly biased in favor of great physical specimens with the humeral twist range of Roddick or Sampras.

I've only heard one or two teaching pros make suggestions about how a person with only some of this flexibility ought to serve-- in all of my pretty long life. And yet the world is full of great unwashed masses who can't do good humeral twist, probably couldn't even do good Chubby Checker twist.

[johnyandell]

Seano,
Have got the reference on that article? Is it incomprehensible?

[seano]

John -
I got the info from TennisiCoach. 2013 ITF Conference, the title of Dr. Elliott's talk was - The Female Tennis Serve: Changes from Development through Junior to Pro Phases.

[bottle]

Dr. Elliott emphasizes rear hip over front hip but says only to the extend that it sets up the more important shoulder over shoulder!! Remember there are 3 movements of the trunk axis 1) shoulder over shoulder 2) twist axis - opens up too early and leads to Dr. Kibler's pull down effect 3) forward bend of the trunk. All 3 movements occur but shoulder over shoulder doesn't occur the whole time, it leads to twist axis thru contact.

Your way of defining "twist axis" led to some better than usual serves (and I was grateful, encouraged and amazed).

But please go down to the red and black barrel in this Brian Gordon article (https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ng_part_1.html) and see the text around this animation.

Trunk rotation seeks to change its axis but in the opposite way from what you described?

So pardon me for being confused! Or if not confused, bemused. Or alive to two opposite possibilities.

[seano]

Bottle -

Glad you had some success with my description, I was basically just repeating Dr. Elliot's info. I found the red and black barrel in Dr. Gordon's article very interesting. He definitely has all 3 types of trunk movement in the visual. What I find interesting is that the barrel never really comes to a stop with the forward tilt. It's my understanding that the trunk stops with forward tilt right before contact or half way thru full internal shoulder rotation. This stopping of the trunk allows for a burst of energy or acceleration. Someone had described the forward tilt like being punched in the stomach right before contact. Just some thoughts.

Sean

[seano]

One other thought - The opposite arm (elbow) will tuck in to the core to stop from over-rotating at forward tilt.

Sean

[bottle]

Bottle -

Glad you had some success with my description, I was basically just repeating Dr. Elliot's info. I found the red and black barrel in Dr. Gordon's article very interesting. He definitely has all 3 types of trunk movement in the visual. What I find interesting is that the barrel never really comes to a stop with the forward tilt. It's my understanding that the trunk stops with forward tilt right before contact or half way thru full internal shoulder rotation. This stopping of the trunk allows for a burst of energy or acceleration. Someone had described the forward tilt like being punched in the stomach right before contact. Just some thoughts.

Sean

Thanks so much. For tennis, I think I prefer a little speculation, even when it is off, over a lot of declarative sentences the truth of which holds up for six minutes. But I doubt you are off. Thanks again.

[johnyandell]

Seano Thanks.

[nytennisaddict]

great article. explains why I prefer the pinpoints. easier for me to launch off both feet. that said I think partially gravitate to pinpoint because it also lets me chase bad tosses a bit easier... not a good reason I know.