Question for John

[gzhpcu]

Thanks for the feedback...

[gzhpcu]

I have to pose questions for John here, The other thread does not open for me....

John, what are your thoughts on keeping the palm down on the swing? Is it essential to set up a good racket drop?

[johnyandell]

No. Probably the opposite. Forces you to use external shoulder rotation more--the exact flexibility most players below the pro level don't have.
Here is a world class serve that is a perfect windup model for the rest of us:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/mark_philippoussis/MP_serve/MP_1st_serve/MP_1st_serve.html?MP1stSDeuceRear.mov

[gzhpcu]

So you would not agree with this?

[johnyandell]

No I would not necessarily. As I said the palm down takes more flexibility in the shoulder. If you can do it and reach the full drop fine, maybe it's even better. But since this is one of the most common and difficult problems holding players back advocating a difficult rotation most people can't make isn't helpful. In fact it's stupid. Youtube in my opinion has been a huge negative in teaching--now all the pros who give bad advice can spread it to thousands of players if they have a video camera or just a phone.

[bottle]

I see Braden on one side, John M. Barnaby on the other, Paul Metzler of Australia straddling the two possibilities.

[gzhpcu]

John, Have to post my questions here again. I am unable to open long threads....

Looking at the high speed archives for serves, I was amazed actually at the predominance of sidespin over topspin even on Stosur's kick serve. The brushing left to right motion of good serves predominates over the minimal bottom to top motion. Very interesting!

[johnyandell]

Phil,
Yes there is no such thing as a "topspin" serve. They are all mixes in degree. In fact we measured this over 15 years ago comparing Greg Rusedski and Pete Sampras. Check it out:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/mystheavyball/john_yandell/speed_and_spin/speed_and_spin.html

[gzhpcu]

Thanks for the link John. The high speed videos really show what actually happens and the article points it out nicely.

[johnyandell]

Yep!

[faultsnaces]

Sure. But I have never seen a top player pause and can't see how it would destroy things...so far as that term stretch shorten cycle I don't like to throw it around quite so loosely. To me if we know what the model positions are that is more important that the biomechanical explanations.

Just saw this and thought I can't resist commenting how much I strongly agree with this, particularly the last phrase.

The SSC is an attractive idea, but I suspect it is a very small part of the overall explanation. We know that all these strokes are composed of a multi-link chain of levers, a multi-segment whip. And biomechanics also knows that muscle activation is a complex subject, with ability to accelerate the relevant lever greatly dependent on a number of factors, including the experienced resistance. Changing the resistance on the lever - perhaps using "negative momentum" relative to the intended direction of acceleration - has the potential to possibly result in increased muscle activation and thus acceleration. Or not. It all depends on a lot of factors, with each lever in the chain behaving differently.

So I think JY has it exactly right, as usual -- the key positions get us to the stroke foundations, regardless of the biomechanics at work behind the scenes.

That's my $0.02, whether you wanted it or not.....
-frank, an amateur at everything I do....

[johnyandell]

Frank naturally I agree.