The Push Serve and the Pull Serve

[johnyandell]

Let's discuss Dr. Ben Kibler on "The Push Serve and the Pull Serve"

[stotty]

This is an interesting article.

It's funny because I use lateral pinpoint. See here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4joc07_stotty_sport

My right leg is doing very little, if anything. I certainly don't push off it. I drive, more forwards then upwards, off my left foot. I rely mainly, or so it feels, on my arm and shoulder action to generate power. Even in my youth I only clocked in the low 90's mph on my first serve, tops. My motion is slick and smooth but my legs aren't doing much, not really.

Today, I hit a basket of serves and tried pushing a little more off my back leg. It worked well. I had to do away with my lateral pinpoint and throw the ball less forward to achieve it but at the end of 50 serves it was staring to feel like my entire body was involved in the process of serving, rather than predominantly my arm and shoulder. I'm a little old to switch serving styles but the experiment was an interesting one because, as a coach, it's good to know what other techniques 'feel' like.

tennis_chiro is lateral pinpoint too and I wonder what his serve feels like to him?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an1ui

It's interesting Ben Kibler cites Navratilova as having a good push. don_budge has long promoted Navratilova as being a great model for female serving. Few ever picked up on his comments on her serve over the years but he's getting justified here. Everyone reaches for Serena's serve as the model to emulate, understandably, but maybe Navratilova's is better?

[seano]

When fully loaded, I've heard the weight distribution should be 60% on the back foot and 40% on the front.

[tennis_chiro]

This is an interesting article.

It's funny because I use lateral pinpoint. See here: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4joc07_stotty_sport

My right leg is doing very little, if anything. I certainly don't push off it. I drive, more forwards then upwards, off my left foot. I rely mainly, or so it feels, on my arm and shoulder action to generate power. Even in my youth I only clocked in the low 90's mph on my first serve, tops. My motion is slick and smooth but my legs aren't doing much, not really.

Today, I hit a basket of serves and tried pushing a little more off my back leg. It worked well. I had to do away with my lateral pinpoint and throw the ball less forward to achieve it but at the end of 50 serves it was staring to feel like my entire body was involved in the process of serving, rather than predominantly my arm and shoulder. I'm a little old to switch serving styles but the experiment was an interesting one because, as a coach, it's good to know what other techniques 'feel' like.

tennis_chiro is lateral pinpoint too and I wonder what his serve feels like to him?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5an1ui

It's interesting Ben Kibler cites Navratilova as having a good push. don_budge has long promoted Navratilova as being a great model for female serving. Few ever picked up on his comments on her serve over the years but he's getting justified here. Everyone reaches for Serena's serve as the model to emulate, understandably, but maybe Navratilova's is better?

All I can say is I WISH I could still serve like that. That was 1985. There was little or no push off my right leg, but plenty of push off my left to get as high as I could, but there was no effort to jump even though the motion took me into the air. It's so different. We landed on the right foot and were off to the races.

A higher quality example is here:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4wr4q2

But I don't think any of us should be compared to Venus. She didn't have the benefit of full internal shoulder rotation or even extension. I've always thought hers was a different kind of serve and lacked some elements of the classic motions, even as she held the record for speed among women for a long time. I can understand calling her motion a "pulling" action. And I think Sampras is coming more off the left side than Dr. Kibler is saying, although he certainly pushed with his right leg a lot more than players of the past.

don

[gzhpcu]

Interesting article. On the other hand, Pat Dougherty recommends what Stotty is doing...

[gzhpcu]

Gerald Patterson 1919 also had weight on the back foot. 1919, but look how modern his serve looks! Budge (the real one) had weight on front foot.

[stroke]

I think John pointed out how much push Roddick got off his back foot(an unusual amount of engagement) in his articles on the Roddick serve. Roddick almost seemed to me to position his right foot in an optimum position for back foot engagement in his pre serve routine. Rick Macci also was really big on this concept on some video piece on the serve that at one time was linked on a thead on tennisplayer.

[stotty]

Jerzy Janowicz can testify there is not too much loss of power using lateral pinpoint. The big plus-point of lateral pinpoint is it allows you to break out of your serve smoothly and continue almost without a break of stride towards the net. Here it is again done perfectly: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w...se-serve_sport

But for me this isn't the point. It's this business of 'sharing the load', making the serve more efficient and less dependent on the arm and shoulder, that interests me as.

The best way to experience this for yourself is to adopt a platform stance and make sure not to toss the ball too far in front, then load with both legs as Federer does and drive upwards. The rear foot will naturally stay on the deck a little longer than when using lateral pinpoint. The difference is quite amazing once you master it. You get really easy, smooth power, and, yes, access to more spin, especially topspin.

It makes perfect sense, when you think about it, to use the whole body when serving and not to leave a section out. The right leg is a stabiliser in lateral pinpoint where as with 'pushers' it's a power source.

[jdcremin]

I'm 100% undecided on this - are players really pushing off their back foot more than the front? Would really like to see some more analysis.

[bdole]

...And I think Sampras is coming more off the left side than Dr. Kibler is saying, although he certainly pushed with his right leg a lot more than players of the past.

don

Fantastic article. I'm with Stotty in that I don't think the pull is an ineffective method, but will experiment with push to see if I can preserve my already troubled shoulder.
I also don't think Sampras pushed off much w/ the back foot. In this tennisplayer clip, the front knee can be seen to extend while the back foot just tilts and drags.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdCourtLevelRear1.mov

A conversation on the retro/lateral pinpoint serve would not be complete w/o an Edberg clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NMRKL2j_6I

[ralph]

Dr. Mark Kovacs seems to be a strong proponent of the back foot push off along with the back hip moving up. He has a drill in which a player rotates backward getting weight onto the back foot and then picking up a ball which is then thrown to get a feel for the technique. Perhaps both work. Which one is better? Can science prove it?

[vrc10s]

Look at the Mark Kovacs article this month. Both of the medicine ball drills for the serve are back leg loading drills. I focused several months ago on getting more drive with my back leg along with more shoulder rotation and it has helped my second serve tremendously.

[jdcremin]

Check this out - definitely teaching to use back leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7aMi_cO44s

[pvchen]

How can you tell from video whether someone is pushing off the back foot or the front foot? When I look at Fed, Sampras, Agassi, it looks like the back toe gets off the ground before the front toe. Does this mean they are pushing off the back foot? Or are they sliding towards the front foot (shifting weight to the front foot) and then jumping off the front foot?

[johnyandell]

They are pushing with both feet. It's elevating the back hip--but the front foot is what is raising them off the ground. Look at a bunch of leg action serves in the archives.