Peter's Serves 2017

[pvchen]

Hi Guys,

May I ask a for some feedback on my serve?

I feel like I've improved on the rhythm. However, there looks to be a balance or weight transfer problem with my feet--not sure if I'm supposed to lift off the back foot or the front foot. Also, I'm probably not hitting the racket drop as well as I should, and I can't get my racket to turn around for the internal shoulder rotation I know I'm supposed to do.

What should I focus on next?

Thanks,
Peter

https://youtu.be/Aj0m-CyOcCQ

[stotty]

Definitely much better. The rear leg is staying in place infinitely better. The rhythm is much better. I can see a few things you could improve but first can you do the following....

It's tough to make a judgement about your racket drop or internal rotation without seeing your serve in slow motion - these two things have to be seen in slow motion to be accurately assessed. You are also showing your serve from the least desirable position from a coaching standpoint. Can you upload a rear view and a side view (side view showing the front of your body, not your back).

I will certainly help you as will others, but we are going to need a better overall view of your serve.

Stotty

[arturohernandez]

Agreed. Need slow-mo and other angles. It looks like you might need a bit more looseness but the rhythm does look good. From what I see there may be not enough snap and thus it is probably flat or slice but not as heavy.

[EdWeiss]

Thanks for posting Peter. I think we all learn a great deal when everyone provides their comments.

A few thoughts:

- Do folks think that Peter has a true Continental grip?
- Presumably related to the first point: when I did a few pauses on the video in the part of the swing from the racket drop to the hit, I saw that, unlike the ideal position where the right edge (for a right-handed serve) of the racket head leads into the ball until the very last moment when the strings hit the ball and then the left edge leads (showing the internal rotation), in Peter's serve the strings are pretty much facing the ball the whole time before the hit (and the strings continue to face forward towards the net after the hit). If I am right in this diagnosis, Don Brosseau has some great drills to help improve this part of the swing.
-The front foot (the left foot) moves a little forward before the jump - there are certainly servers who do this but ideally for balance the front foot does not move until the jump forward (btw, when learning best to not jump at all to promote better balance).
-Not much in the way of shoulder tilt in the backswing phase - though that can always be added later.

Hopefully some of the great posters on the site will weigh in on the above thoughts - I am happy to be corrected if I am off on these points. Thanks.

[bobbyswift]

Your rhythm is off and their needs to be greater leg drive. Your ball toss is low and your right arm is too fast for your toss height. Ivan Ljubicic has the same low toss as you look at where his racket head is at the moment of ball release. After adjusting leg drive would be where I would start next.

[bobbyswift]

Don't adjust ball toss change right arm rhythm. If you toss higher problem looks more pronounced.

[tennis_chiro]

It looks like you are trying to emulate Federer's rhythm and motion. It is not easy. He starts with his hands down and creates the speed of his backswing out of nothing. In the past, players tried to start with their hands a little higher and they got some tempo from the natural speed of the gravity drop of the racket head. Stich, Krajicek, Agassi,... even Sampras had a little bit of a drop. Almost all the players from before the 70's started with their hands higher. I still think it is the best way to go. A motion like Federer's requires a very deliberate initiation of the motion and it is more subject to breakdown due to fatigue or tension under pressure.

But given that you are trying to emulate Roger, you have to recognize the inherent rhythm of what he is doing. It is basically slow to fast or medium to fast. Your rhythm is really more like slow (when you are moving your weight back without moving your hands) to fast (when you are trying to get the racket up) to slow (as you are waiting for the ball to get into the right position and then for your racket head to drop down to the "pro droop' position from where you can fire full speed at the ball) to fast when you actually hit up at the ball. I think you might try focusing on extending your left arm on the toss which would get your shoulders a little more sloped upward and at the same time try to synchronize the speed of the backswing and also the transfer of the weight from back to front. It's my belief that you can't have a ocnsistent toss and therefore serve without a solid connection between the forward transfer (rock) of the weight and the upward movement of the tossing arm; for me, this is the lynchpin that holds the whole thing together. You can get away with ignoring my preference for hands starting together and higher (at least chest if not shoulder level; Sampras was really only about waist level), but I don't think you can develop a consistent, effective serve if you do not have that linkage between the "rock" and the toss. Players who toss and then rock forward just don't have the consistency. The modern emphasis on leg drive to the detriment of synchronization of toss and "rock" are, for me, one of the big reasons for low first serve percentages and high numbers of double faults in modern players. It boggles my mind that guys who are 6' 5" tall with reaches probably 8" more than mine even before they jump another 6" off the ground (effectively making the net they are hitting over at least 6" lower than the one I had to deal with) can't consistently serve over 70% first serves. I consider it inferior technique. Players in the 60's averaging a good 3 to 4 inches shorter, regularly served in the high 60's to low 70's.

don

[pvchen]

Thanks for all the thoughts so far! Stotty, I will post other angles as soon as I get a chance.

Don/tennis_chiro, you're spot on when you say I'm trying to emulate Roger--after all, he's presented as the ideal model on this site. Also, when you talk about the problems with that motion--that's exactly what I've experienced! It's hard for me to get the arms up from that hanging down position without putting in too much effort and having my toss fly wildly.

So, if you start with your hands up, should the arms be bent (like Sampras), or straight (like Agassi) at the beginning?

Should your weight go back as the arms drop (I think that's more like Fed)? Or should the weight be on the back foot at the time the arms drop (it looks like Sampras does this with the front toe up when he drops his arms)?

Can you explain what you mean by rocking forward as the tossing arm goes up?--I feel that if I toss up while rocking forward, my weight ends up too much on the front foot at trophy (almost falling forward), and I thought that the weight should be even or more on the back foot at trophy?

Thanks!
Peter

[tennis_chiro]

Thanks for all the thoughts so far! Stotty, I will post other angles as soon as I get a chance.

Don/tennis_chiro, you're spot on when you say I'm trying to emulate Roger--after all, he's presented as the ideal model on this site. Also, when you talk about the problems with that motion--that's exactly what I've experienced! It's hard for me to get the arms up from that hanging down position without putting in too much effort and having my toss fly wildly.

So, if you start with your hands up, should the arms be bent (like Sampras), or straight (like Agassi) at the beginning?

Should your weight go back as the arms drop (I think that's more like Fed)? Or should the weight be on the back foot at the time the arms drop (it looks like Sampras does this with the front toe up when he drops his arms)?

Can you explain what you mean by rocking forward as the tossing arm goes up?--I feel that if I toss up while rocking forward, my weight ends up too much on the front foot at trophy (almost falling forward), and I thought that the weight should be even or more on the back foot at trophy?

Thanks!
Peter

Peter,
your weight transfer is pretty good already as far as synchronising the left arm going up with the forward shift of the weight. In the past, players pretty much got almost all of their weight on the front foot by the time they completed the toss. With the emphasis on leg thrust these days, a lot of players only get about half way there on the toss and save a little for the leg thrust, but Roger definitely moves forward as he tosses the ball, but he saves a little for the leg thrust. If you look at great servers prior to the 90's and even Sampras, almost all of the weight is on the front foot by the time the left arm is extended. Sampras is a little different from Roger as he doesn't go into the knee bend until the ball has left his hand; then he drops into a pretty deep knee bend. I've always felt the advantage there was you are not using your knees for your toss and it's simpler and more consistent.

As far as the front to back to front, Roger barely rocks back as his hands go down just a few inches and then he moves forward as he drops into his leg drop (whatever you want to call it as he bends his knees) but he doesn't move his weight all the way forward, just a little past halfway I would say; then he goes up to the ball. Prior to the mid 90's you pretty much saw two kinds of motions as far as the rock was concerned. You either saw a simple back to front like Sampras or a front to back to front like Stan Smith/Pancho Gonzales/Michael Stich/RIchard Krajicek. You had a few people who started forward and then rocked back, but didn't really start their hands down until they had the weight back so, in my view, they were really just back to front motions. Almost everyone had hands down together up together kinds of motions, but there were exceptions. The staggered kind of backsiwng like Mardy Fish has been something that became more prevalent only in the last 20 or 25 years.

All these different motions put more and more emphasis on whatever the server could do to create more power and again, in my view, not enough emphasis on maintaining simplicity and consistency as first serve percentages dropped. But don't get me started on that topic.

So you have a choice. You have to find a rhythm and rock that feels comfortable to you. Personally, if I can get someone to learn it, I try to get my advanced students to learn the Stich/Krajicek/Smith front to back to front motion with hands down/weight back (only to even) and hands up/weight forward. I make my students toss and catch the ball running the motion back and forth in reverse. This particular motion easily lends itself to developing the rhythm of the toss this way, retracing the motion to the beginning and repeating it over and over again like a metronome. But all that being said, it is difficult to get that rhythm right and I normally start a student out with the simple Sampras, back to front motion.

As far as what your arms are doing, I claim that it is critical that you are going forward as you toss the ball. To me that is the lynchpin that holds everything together. You see a lot of players now tossing the ball and not really beginning their forward motion until after the ball has left their hand; I think they are doomed to a lot of inconsistency in the toss and double faults under pressure. And this is what you are already doing although you are not getting the left shoulder up enough. As for position of your arms at the start of the motion if you decide to start a little highter, just practice letting the racket swing back and forth with the weight transfer; let gravity swing the racket as much as possible - it never changes, never gets tired, never gets tense under pressure - it always swings the racket the same way if you start it in the same place. If you start it at your waist, gravity will swing it to a little above your knees; it you start it at your shoulders, gravity will swing it a little further. My preference is to start the racket with your hands at shoulder level and the racket head way up at eye level, then gravity will swing it effortlessly all the way up to the trophy position. Remember that trophy position needs to be relative to the line of your shoulders or clavicles as opposed to the horizon. Sampras's hands are actually synchronized really well; it is not really a staggered rhythm even thought it looks that way because he gets his shoulders/clavicles almost vertical. Pete's upper arm is in line with his shoulders.

If you decide to try something like that, be sure to take a look at some clips of Krajicek or Stich. But you should try some milder modification before you try something that radical compared to where you are. If you just raise your hands to waist level and let the drop that takes place from there to synchronize with the move you already have in your rock towards the rear, that should give you enough momentum to get the racket head up more easily and get into a better tilt of your shoulders in your trophy position. Just be sure that once your hands start to go up, you are rocking your weight back to the front. That simple change might be enough to get you into a more relaxed backswing.

Give it a try and let us know how it works for you.

don

PS one more thing. Just took another look at your serve. Get rid of the foot fault. You'll do better when you do get the weight solidly on the left side. You might delay it like Roger, but that foot is supposed to be pushing up off the ground when you go up to hit the ball. And you might as well get rid of the foot fault!

[bobbyswift]

When I looked at your serve I was using a split screen with Federer. I do this six hours a day so I knew Ivan would be the better rhythm match. Your weight rocking front to back is definitely an issue but as you can read in the last posts tricky to do especially with out an expierenced coach like Don guiding you. Go back look at my post I think it will be good starting spot.

[tennis_chiro]

Bobby has a nice suggestion for you in using Ivan Ljubicic's motion

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/ivan_ljubicic/il_serve/il_1st_serve/1st_serve.html?IL1stSDeuceSide2.mov

take a good look at it next to yours

https://youtu.be/Aj0m-CyOcCQ

Notice the way he double pumps to get his arms relaxed and started. And when he makes the first move down with his hands, he drops the weight slightly back to his back foot. Then after he has raised his hands back up in front, the motion is very similar to the action that Sampras has as far as lowering that left toe as he makes his backswing from there; it's really one directon from there with his weight. Just note that he doesn't really start the forward motion until the extra down up pump is done. It certainly would be worth a try. You don't need to copy everything Ivan is doing like that left hand reaching to the top of the racket head; your positions are pretty good there already.

don

[pvchen]

Hi Guys,

Here are videos from the front and back views, normal and slowmo speed. Stotty/Arturo, much appreciate your feedback if you get a chance to look.

Don/tennis-chiro and bobbyswift: Thanks for the Lubicic suggestion. I tried starting out with the hands and racket higher. The arms stretched out and the crouch in Lubicic's motion didn't feel right to me, but I did like the double pump to get the arms relaxed. Does this look better?

bobbyswift, I noticed that, although I'm trying to go arms down together up together, my hitting arm goes up before my tossing arm, and my hitting hand is a little above my shoulder when I'm releasing my toss. Is this what you mean by my hitting arm is too fast? Could this be the reason why it's so hard for me to control my toss?

Peter Serve 2-2017 side view normal speed:

https://youtu.be/8feFWYIgBe8

Peter Serve 2-2017 back view normal speed:

https://youtu.be/8i3iFT42Ytw

Peter Serve 2-2017 side view slowmo

https://youtu.be/vWU2pdfoDDQ

Peter Serve 2-2017 back view slowmo

https://youtu.be/h9hMSyU_cfM

Thanks!
Peter

[bobbyswift]

You are using your legs much better on side view. Yes your right hand needs to be more passive in the beginning and let your left hand be more active. Y ou need to keep your right shoulder more internally rotated in backswing as your racket head gets above your hand too early. You have elevated the toss so I am using Federer as the comparison model today.In trophy position your right hand is too elevated you need to experiment with trying to create more tilting of the shoulders.

[tennis_chiro]

Hi Guys,

,,,
bobbyswift, I noticed that, although I'm trying to go arms down together up together, my hitting arm goes up before my tossing arm, and my hitting hand is a little above my shoulder when I'm releasing my toss. Is this what you mean by my hitting arm is too fast? Could this be the reason why it's so hard for me to control my toss?

Peter Serve 2-2017 side view normal speed:

https://youtu.be/8feFWYIgBe8

Peter Serve 2-2017 back view normal speed:

https://youtu.be/8i3iFT42Ytw

Peter Serve 2-2017 side view slowmo

https://youtu.be/vWU2pdfoDDQ

Peter Serve 2-2017 back view slowmo

https://youtu.be/h9hMSyU_cfM

Thanks!
Peter

I think it looks much better. You are correct about the right arm going up ahead of the right. If I had you on the court, I would ask you to try the following:

Do exactly as you are doing in the most recent set of clips, start the right hand just where you have it as that seems comfortable to you, but start your left hand with some part of it, probably the left little finger, touching some part of your right hand, probably the top of your right thumb. This would better synchronize your hands. Do the same thing you are demonstrating with your toss in the clips - the little lift as you rock back, but just put those hands together. Just try that for a couple of dozen serves and see how it feels. At the same time, I would emphasize reaching up with the left hand just a little more as you toss; that will help slope your shoulders a little more upward and drop the right shoulder inside as Bobby is suggesting in the last post.

But overall, the speed of your toss and your rhythm looks much better to me.

don

[bobbyswift]

Great advice in Don's last post that will make a huge improvement in the rhythm of your serve