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often one sees long rallies where the adversary is running diagonally backwards to return a ball, and is well behind the baseline and his opponent does not go to the net! Federer is one of the few who does.
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Think 3000rpm poly string dipping passing shots -
Yes but they are way behind the baseline and moving away from it, hitting a defensive shot..Comment
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Yeah I do think attack could happen more but I have seen pro players pass consistently from every situation--moving back is no longer necessarily defensiveComment
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I think a good point. Perhaps just like at lower levels of the game, it comes down to confidence? Leaving the security of the baseline to charge forwards is not an easy decision to make if you don't have big confidence in your net game, even when the odds would be in your favour to do it. I'm watching TSonga vs Wawrinka right now. The conditions are fast, and everyone knows Stan is vulnerable when players come to the net against him. I have counted just one time that Tsonga has serve/volleyed, and in open play he has only come forward when the situation has begged for it. He is currently down 67 46 14 still trying to blast away from the baseline. And Tsonga has a decent net game!Comment
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I have never fully bought into this theory.Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
If you come to the net on the backhand wing of Djokovic or Murray, you won't have much spin to deal with as they hit pretty flat. A few years ago, I watched Stepanek play Djokovic at Wimbledon from about ten rows back. Stepanek lost in five sets but seemed to positively enjoy hitting volleys delivered to him from Djokovic's backhand. Djokovic was monotone about things and Stepanek never had to think about covering a lob, just passing shots. Murray is more problematic as he lobs and has more guile than Djokovic.
But yes forehands can be tricky to volley as the ball is fizzing, but two-handed backhands I am not so sure. Coming to the net is still doable on grass. The bottomline is few have to skills and therefore lack the confidence to do so.
As Phil pointed out, players are passing up decent opportunities where they have their opponents backing up and out of position but choose to remain on the baseline.
StottyStottyComment
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Well, Craig's numbers back up your position.Comment
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There is no mystery as to why the players no longer play all court tennis. The court surface had everything to do with the play at the 2017 Australian Open. This was the first time since 2007 than three of the four men semifinalists used one handed backhands in a Grand Slam event. The Grand Slam event in 2007 was also the Australian Open.
There are no coincidences in politics. These are tennis politics and engineering. There is no mystery. Just apply basic fundamental knowledge of the game of tennis to understand why going forwards to the net is basically an extinct proposal. Even with the favorable conditions there was rather sporadic net play as compared to the classic era. Players are ill prepared to go forwards and they hesitate. When going to the net...he who hesitates is lost. We saw this a lot this week. Players knew they had to go forwards but hesitated for that split second.
The true net player has a nose for the net. Their noses almost seem to hanging over the net. It is an instinct that must be developed. Not a single one of them has it any longer. Once you have committed yourself to taking the ball in the air the whole of your being is committed to taking the ball as early as possible. Swinging volleys further discourage this sort of committed reaction.
The cure? Faster surfaces throughout the tour and smaller racquet heads (gasp)
. Players will be FORCED to adapt.
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Despite the very slow courts at Roland Garros back in the 80s, let's not forget serve volleyers McEnroe and Edberg made it to the finals only to lose to their baseline opponents Lendl and Chang narrowly in fives sets. Those guys came awfully close.Originally posted by don_budge View PostThere is no mystery as to why the players no longer play all court tennis. The court surface had everything to do with the play at the 2017 Australian Open. This was the first time since 2007 than three of the four men semifinalists used one handed backhands in a Grand Slam event. The Grand Slam event in 2007 was also the Australian Open.
There are no coincidences in politics. These are tennis politics and engineering. There is no mystery. Just apply basic fundamental knowledge of the game of tennis to understand why going forwards to the net is basically an extinct proposal. Even with the favorable conditions there was rather sporadic net play as compared to the classic era. Players are ill prepared to go forwards and they hesitate. When going to the net...he who hesitates is lost. We saw this a lot this week. Players knew they had to go forwards but hesitated for that split second.
The true net player has a nose for the net. Their noses almost seem to hanging over the net. It is an instinct that must be developed. Not a single one of them has it any longer. Once you have committed yourself to taking the ball in the air the whole of your being is committed to taking the ball as early as possible. Swinging volleys further discourage this sort of committed reaction.
The cure? Faster surfaces throughout the tour and smaller racquet heads (gasp). Players will be FORCED to adapt.
My point being, even on slow courts serve and volley can have an impact.
StottyStottyComment
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Let's not forget that they were playing with smaller racquets in general but both these examples were using the midsize that helped to utilize the element of speed, not to mention spin and placement, into the power equation for playing clay court tennis back then. John McEnroe and Stefan Edberg would be considered exceptions to the rule. But that being said...all of the players made their way to the net at any given tactical juncture. Because they could. They were equipped with the strokes to do it and what is more...the instinct.Originally posted by stotty View Post
Clay court tennis has always traditionally been more of a baseline affair. The surface being slower. That is the key exponent that made it slower and kept it slower. The high bouncing hard courts of today definitely discourage net play because as John notes...it is really impossible to volley dipping bullets consistently. If you want to serve and volley you must be prepared to play these ball all day long. But modern conditions work diametrically opposed to this. The ball sits up. The players armed with 100 square inches of graphite with suped up strings and western forehand grips are able to take advantage of just about anything.
I haven't forgotten anything. My point stands. It is the conditions of the courts and the racquets that has made going to the net a losing proposition. The faster courts at the Australian Open were the fundamental reason that we are having this discussion. The slow courts not only discourage serve and volley they discourage all court play in general. One of the fundamentals of approaching the net is underspin shots. On the current abrasive surfaces the ball "sits up" rather than "lays down".
Even in the final this aspect of the Federer game was noticeably missing and it is due to lack of usage. He has these shots. Unfortunately they have been relegated to the dustbin.
The grass at Wimbledon is like a velcro surface and it has the same abrasive effect on the ball which is a big reason that serve and volley is not employed there. One the other hand I would think that both Mischa Zverev and Roger Federer at this point are setting their sites on Wimbledon and probably trying to hone in some serve and volley to their respective repertoires.Comment
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My point being...it is getting awfully difficult to compare players across their respective "Culmination Points". Which is short of saying that you might be wrong. It's a good point...very good.Originally posted by stotty View Post
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I was referring to McEnroe's and Edberg's generations in isolation. I was making no comparison to today's tennis and should have made that clear. My post was just about how they managed to find a way to serve volley even on very slow courts. They did this by being very good at it. Both players nearly pulled off the French Open, not bad. I guess that would be a bit like Djokovic nearly winning Wimbledon on 1970s grass courts, if I were to draw a comparison.Originally posted by don_budge View Post
StottyComment
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Originally posted by stotty View Post
Surely I get your point. But now you have to always factor in engineering ever since the game became a reengineered version of the original. A sham in other words. Anyone who thinks otherwise is brainwashed.
In the match that you reference regarding the impact of serve and volley on slow surfaces is skewed by an equipment issue. In this case Michael Chang, who should go down in history as a great imposter, is using a Prince Graphite 110. One hundred and ten square inches compared to Stefan Edberg was using the 85 square inch version of the Wilson Pro Staff 6.0. What does this have to do with the equation? How does it influence the possible outcomes?
These two players are actually playing different games...on the same court. It might look the same. But it isn't.Comment
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