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Hello, enjoyed watching the video. It is interesting to see what you believe is a world class volley at the net. It made me smile. I am glad to see your son is in University and focusing on school first over tennis. It's a good decision. I apologize if I have offended you in the past. I hear you are a great guy, and I am sure you doing a fine job entertaining the children and ensuring they have a positive experience in participation tennis. Your club looks quite lovely by the way, and its seems like a nice safe place for kids to socialize, meet new friends and be active! Good for you, and your son in his academic endeavors.
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It's a shame you can't get over your sarcasm, hockeyscout. And it would be nice to see how this girl of yours is getting along since you emailed me those video clips a few years ago. I remember she had unruly strokes but showed talent. Why don't you share the work you have done with her with others on the forum? Post some clips?StottyComment
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Is All the Emphasis Here Right?
Hey, gentlemen, don't underestimate the parts of tennischiro's lesson about inside out. To me, inside out creates better brevity and deceleration after the contact. How much more this might apply to a forehand volley that keeps constant bend at the elbow than to one in which elbow straightens during the action a bit I don't know. And same on backhand volleys, I guess. One thing for sure: the emphasis on movement from the shoulder over from the elbow. The way I interpret this is that there might be a little subordinated straightening from the elbow, but from the shoulder is the important thing. And of course we're going to block balls we don't have to sting. Better though in all cases to tell the ball what to do rather than have it tell you what to do.
When u-shaped structure is strictly maintained (on both sides, precluding L-shape BHV's at least as the staple there!), there is going to be energy left over, it seems to me. Energy which can go sharply sideways though for a minimal distance. So somebody learning this who used to cross all his volleys still gets to go sideways, gets to still use that skill. Only after the inside out part in which all momentum (including that from the BOD) goes into contact and not beyond.Comment
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For the Sake of Conversation...The Transcript
The original video of Stotty's son's backhand volley...standing still
Tim Henman's backhand volley...aggressively moving forwards
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...HBHVFront1.mov
"The Rocket Rod Laver" backhand volley...aggressively moving forwards
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...eBHVFront2.mov
Backhand volley lesson starts at 4.30 or thereabouts...Originally posted by tennis_chiro View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk7m...ature=youtu.be
Transcript from tennis_chiro on the backhand volley...
"You are trying to get the ball to go this way. You get over here like this...the body knows you have get to this. If you get over there like this...you know that you don’t have to do that. I got to hurry, this is going to shoot the ball over to the side. So the wrist pops...it’s the way you set up the racquet. When you watch me volley, you see the racquet set and then I hit. If I don’t move the racquet it is still going back. If you did that the ball would go off to the side.
Do you understand what I am saying? You are trying to set up the kind of volley that I teach, it’s kind of a classic volley, not a big swing but you can really hit it. Trying to take the “U” and move the whole thing, whether it is right or left it’s a “U”. You know about the “U” right? This is the two sides of the “U” and this is the bottom. I want basically that structure to be maintained, I want the racquet to just come forward. If I set up for the ball like that...my body knows that it’s got to flip. When you start to do this now you are accelerating the ball. When I do this I can hit the ball and not rush because if I catch the ball a little late it is still goes in the same direction...not exactly but almost.
Do you follow what I am saying? So if you can set that up...that’s how you get...you asked about the backhand volley. The backhand volley...everyone goes over and they pull the head back. So now...(unintelligible)...you’ve got to to that. Not like that. It’s this whole structure. If you are showing me that...you’re showing me that straightening out. I’m saying no...don’t do that. Don’t hit it from the elbow. Hit it from the shoulder. Keep that whole thing structured...maintain that “U” as opposed to losing that arm of the “U”. Now you’ve gone from one, two, three pieces...to one, two. Almost one. If you straighten that arm you have lost the “U”."
Originally posted by don_budge View PostComment
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The Role of the Left Hand...and the "U" turns into a curvy "L".
Good job tennis_chiro. It's a nice explanation of the mechanics of the arm motion. But the one thing that I find missing from the presentation is the role of the left hand in setting the racquet head in position.Originally posted by don_budge View PostFor the Sake of Conversation...The Transcript
The original video of Stotty's son's backhand volley...standing still
Tim Henman's backhand volley...aggressively moving forwards
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...HBHVFront1.mov
"The Rocket Rod Laver" backhand volley...aggressively moving forwards
https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...eBHVFront2.mov
Backhand volley lesson starts at 4.30 or thereabouts...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk7m...ature=youtu.be
Transcript from tennis_chiro on the backhand volley...
"You are trying to get the ball to go this way. You get over here like this...the body knows you have get to this. If you get over there like this...you know that you don’t have to do that. I got to hurry, this is going to shoot the ball over to the side. So the wrist pops...it’s the way you set up the racquet. When you watch me volley, you see the racquet set and then I hit. If I don’t move the racquet it is still going back. If you did that the ball would go off to the side.
Do you understand what I am saying? You are trying to set up the kind of volley that I teach, it’s kind of a classic volley, not a big swing but you can really hit it. Trying to take the “U” and move the whole thing, whether it is right or left it’s a “U”. You know about the “U” right? This is the two sides of the “U” and this is the bottom. I want basically that structure to be maintained, I want the racquet to just come forward. If I set up for the ball like that...my body knows that it’s got to flip. When you start to do this now you are accelerating the ball. When I do this I can hit the ball and not rush because if I catch the ball a little late it is still goes in the same direction...not exactly but almost.
Do you follow what I am saying? So if you can set that up...that’s how you get...you asked about the backhand volley. The backhand volley...everyone goes over and they pull the head back. So now...(unintelligible)...you’ve got to to that. Not like that. It’s this whole structure. If you are showing me that...you’re showing me that straightening out. I’m saying no...don’t do that. Don’t hit it from the elbow. Hit it from the shoulder. Keep that whole thing structured...maintain that “U” as opposed to losing that arm of the “U”. Now you’ve gone from one, two, three pieces...to one, two. Almost one. If you straighten that arm you have lost the “U”."
I am usually teaching to small groups so it isn't possible to spend so much time with one individual in such detail. So in my spiel I emphasize a couple of things...one of them is the role of the left hand. First of all it is the left hand that is in control of the racquet head on the backswing. The left hand sets the racquet in position. I like the emphasis on going actually forwards in the backswing for a volley. Again if you also emphasize the role of the left hand in this move it takes on a new meaning. Of course when doing this while moving forwards the forwards emphasis becomes even more obvious.
But I also teach that the left hand begins on the racquet as the forward motion proceeds. The reason for this is to get the student to turn the shoulders back to the ball. It isn't a big turn but if you start the forwards swing with the left hand on the racquet you must turn the shoulders because both hands are on the racquet. This is the beginning to get the student to lean on the ball with their weight and their footwork. With the left hand on the racquet the student gets a feel of how to make themselves into a wall and the need for a big swing is unnecessary. Make your self into a wall and meet the ball well out in front.
As for the "U" in the swing...I like to set the student up in this position but it seems to me that the weight of the racquet head swinging forwards almost always straightens the arm. It looks like it does in most of the videos that are posted at the top of this post. I like to emphasize that the strings finish more at the target. One other point of emphasis is the timing of the foot coming into the ground and the racquet coming into the ball.
I really like your technique as you demonstrate your backhand volley. You really use that left hand to set the thing up.
Your thoughts?
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don_budge - my observation - the movement of this athlete is a major issue.
You can install everything as it's been discussed here (by some well-qualified people who know what they talk about when it comes to tennis), but, his movement, in no possible way will this player EVER reach a ball with his present-day center of gravity (control).
Would that not be job number one?
Getting him functional first as an athlete, and then training him how to move to a ball, and more importantly know what to do with the feet after he hits the ball?
I don't think you'd ever get this player into positioning to take advantage of all this great instruction when it comes to the hands and racket head.
Last edited by hockeyscout; 07-24-2017, 10:39 PM.Comment
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It's always a given regarding the player's athleticism. Your point will always be correct. But in this regard we are looking at tennis_chiro taking what he is given and the process to developing a certain shot. He does an excellent job in giving this kid a gift...the ability to "crisp" a backhand volley.
It looks to me as if this is not a very experienced player and he probably not setting his sights on the tour. He is more or less a "recreational" players who enjoys a bit of friendly competition on the local level.
Your point is well taken though. It is one of those things that we might say are "fundamentally" crucial in the development of a player. This is why all of your emphasis on developing skill sets to your daughter is so important. But in the tennis "biz" we only have so much time with a student. Typically it is an hour...perhaps a few a week. I advise my players all the time to work on their conditioning and the other components of sport on the outside. I encourage them to play soccer as it is great for footwork and all other conditioning aspects of the tennis game. I even encourage them to play ping pong...it can develop the component of "spin".
Curious as tennis_chiro's response to my post...his development of the arm motion in the backhand volley was very interesting and I will watch it again to "steal" what I can. Great of him to share...very generous. You can see in the technique of "Big Don" that at one point in time and space he was a great volleyer.Comment
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Sorry I couldn’t respond sooner. One of those rare days I got to wear my chiro hat. We saw 30 patients today. Good day.Originally posted by don_budge View PostThe Role of the Left Hand...and the "U" turns into a curvy "L".
Good job tennis_chiro. It's a nice explanation of the mechanics of the arm motion. But the one thing that I find missing from the presentation is the role of the left hand in setting the racquet head in position.
I am usually teaching to small groups so it isn't possible to spend so much time with one individual in such detail. So in my spiel I emphasize a couple of things...one of them is the role of the left hand. First of all it is the left hand that is in control of the racquet head on the backswing. The left hand sets the racquet in position. I like the emphasis on going actually forwards in the backswing for a volley. Again if you also emphasize the role of the left hand in this move it takes on a new meaning. Of course when doing this while moving forwards the forwards emphasis becomes even more obvious.
But I also teach that the left hand begins on the racquet as the forward motion proceeds. The reason for this is to get the student to turn the shoulders back to the ball. It isn't a big turn but if you start the forwards swing with the left hand on the racquet you must turn the shoulders because both hands are on the racquet. This is the beginning to get the student to lean on the ball with their weight and their footwork. With the left hand on the racquet the student gets a feel of how to make themselves into a wall and the need for a big swing is unnecessary. Make your self into a wall and meet the ball well out in front.
As for the "U" in the swing...I like to set the student up in this position but it seems to me that the weight of the racquet head swinging forwards almost always straightens the arm. It looks like it does in most of the videos that are posted at the top of this post. I like to emphasize that the strings finish more at the target. One other point of emphasis is the timing of the foot coming into the ground and the racquet coming into the ball.
I really like your technique as you demonstrate your backhand volley. You really use that left hand to set the thing up.
Your thoughts?
First of all, tough seeing your words transcribed from a live lesson. In my defense, I want to point out there was no script here; I was just interacting with my students. It comes off a little better with the video.
But a few things:
the “u” - this is a John Yandell construct. I’ve been using this particular description since I saw it in one of JY’s video lessons on this site a few years back. I can’t take credit for it. I taught something similar before, but that concept is a great distillation of what we are trying to do on the volley.
the use of the left hand - I think the left hand (for a right hander) on the backhand is really important whether it is a groundstroke, service return or backhand volley. I advocate a grip change for the groundstroke and service return so it is absolutely necessary that the left hand takes the racket back while that grip change is being executed simultaneously. On the bhvolley, I contend that you can be quicker if the left hand pulls the rackethead behind the ball even as the right hand is going slightly toward the ball (knuckles to the ball). If you move toward the backhand side this way, you don’t have to overcome the momentum of the right hand and arm to go forward. Just pull with the left hand and then fire with the right side when you are lined up. I similarly think this makes you quicker on backhand return of serve. The transcript shows that I did not make this clear enough in this little video, but I definitely want the left hand to lead the motion over to the backhand volley, even if there is no grip change. I teach left hand is pulling behind the ball even as the knuckles of the right hand are going forward and taking the butt of the racket slightly forward; so it’s a pull with the left as the right hand pushes forward. That’s a bit of an oversimplification, but it’s close.
the extension of the right elbow as you hit the volley - yes, I have to acknowledge there is some extension of the right elbow as you contact the bhvolley, but much less than the full chop that is routinely employed by most of today’s good singles players, including Federer. If you were paying attention, you saw him miss at least 3 important backhand volleys that were at net height or just below. It is simply too tough to consistently make that shot on a ball below your waist, much less below your knees, when your backswing takes the racket head above your shoulders. That’s not the kind of volleys you saw from old timers like Sedgeman who hit those volleys with plenty of “stick” to them. You repeatedly see today’s singles players looking totally impotent when they get stuck in a close quarter exchange where they don’t have time for that big stroke and can’t generate enough pace to put away a simple opportunity. We see that all the time.
the movement of the shoulders into the volley - the backhand volley is different from the forehand volley because the right arm is connected to the front shoulder. In the forehand the right arm is connected to the rear shoulder and a slight turn of the hips and shoulders generates power forward into the shot because the fulcrum of the action (ideally, but not always) is at the front foot and shoulder. In the backhand volley, the right shoulder is that fulcrum and pivot point and any turn of the hips and shoulders directs the power of the shot away from the target across to the volleyers right. The left shoulder should be maintained in that classic position perpendicular to the net (with the beautiful picture of the left hand extended out to the rear - great but not absolutely necessary). This doesn’t mean the shoulder doesn’t move. The shoulder movement that you want is the right scapular motion. The ball can be hit with no such action, but that makes it a weak shot with on ly the action of the arm. You want the shoulder blade/scapula to add its power to the shot if there is enough time to involve that joint. If the ball is too fast, you just set the racket behind the ball and take your 1” Bruce Lee punch with all the momentum you can muster in 1’ going towards the target and just slightly under the ball. The associated underpin gives you a little better feel of the ball and also keeps the ball a little lower after the bounce.
the grip change - In 1970, I was a recent college graduate without a job headed for an MBA at UCLA. My dad sold printing to Jack Kramer for the program for the Pacific Southwest. He arranged a meeting for me and Jack got me an interview with Vic Braden. Two summers before I had been a camp counselor for Dennis Van der Meer and in 1969, he had gotten me a head pro job. Vic hired me to run a program he had created with ball machines and his films and video in NYC. I got to spend a little time one on one with Vic, but I spent a lot of time watching his films because the program was 20 minutes in the classroom starting with part or all of one of his films and then 20 minutes on each of two courts and there were 4 ball machines on each of the courts. There were 8 students max in each class on a court so we could start 24 students every hour on two courts and a little classroom. Anyway, I did get to spend a little time with Vic. Sadly not enough. But he had spent a lot of time studying Kramer when he was beating Gonzales. He was adamant about the fact that Kramer had a big edge on Pancho because he changed grips for his backhand volley so he could hit the forehand volley down the line aggressively with his grip whereas Pancho was limited by his continental grip. The thing was Kramer had to change grips for his backhand volley. But it didn’t cost him any time because the grip change was an automatic part of his backhand volley and it took place as his left hand was taking the racket head towards the oncoming ball. He didn’t switch and then move the racket; not enough time for that. So he didn’t give up anything on the backhand volley because he was changing grips, but he did gain something on the forehand because he had a stronger fhvolley grip for that down the line forehand volley.
So, if I can get the player early enough, I actually will still teach the grip change as part of the backhand volley. But I rarely ever get that player who is serious enough and early enough in his or her development that I can teach them to do that. I am usually trying to teach my students to hit with the continental grip on serves and everything inside the service line except maybe swinging volleys. I actually hate swinging volleys and prefer to teach what I call “drive volleys” which are much smaller swings than a swinging volley. Scotty says they don’t differentiate in the UK, but I draw a distinction.
cont belowComment
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(continuing from above)
Stepping into the ball - in my view, one of the most misunderstood aspects of good volleying technique. It’s great to be moving into the ball as you hit the volley, but it’s actually better to have completed the movement before you meet the ball. You can generate a lot more force if the front foot is on the ground and your body, on a forehand volley, is rotating about the firm fulcrum you have created at your left foot . With your head “absolutely still”, you have more control and are more able to correctly time a ball moving at well above 60 mph. The lever from the head of the racket head to the fulcrum at your left foot or at least that axis through your left side and shoulder exerts tremendous force on the ball and more than enough power to hit a “concluder” if you direct the momentum of the racket head effectively, even though the stroke is very short. Of course moving into the ball will add a little more to the shot, but players move into the volley to get into better position with the racket head and get closer to the net; they are not trying to create force by “lunging” forward as is often taught. In serving and volleying, a player often is unable to get that front foot down before they meet the ball, but the best players would rather have that foot down on the ground. The volley is about taking time away from your opponent, but it is at the expense of sacrificing time for yourself. It is about position. You must not waste this opportunity because you tried to gain a couple df more mph by lunging into the volley. You just don’t gain that many mph by lunging forward. To understand what I am saying there, imagine a baseball hitter deciding that he will use a bunting swing but run from the back to the front of the batting box (assume for the moment that it were legal). Compare that to the player taking a normal swing where he is using pulleys and levers to generate bat speed and send the ball out of the park. No comparison. Your lunging forward to hit a volley is also no comparison to the power you get from your pulleys and levers when you rotate your body a few degrees and apply force about a fixed fulcrum, in this case the left foot on the ground for a fhvolley. Try and apply force with a lever without a fixed fulcrum and you are impotent. Think about it.
the “wall” image - It’s a great one. But it is limited. You should take a swing at a volley if possible. However, the full volley swing is only a few inches for the hand and about 2to 3 feet for the racket head. And yes, the racket head should continue to face the target as opposed to coming across or way down under the ball. Obviously, drop volleys and angle volleys are a slightly different story. But one of the things my coach taught me 40 plus years ago was to analyze my opponents volleys. If they really used that “wall” volley technique, they would be pretty good on fast balls, but basically impotent if I just hit them slow balls at the net. If the swing was too big and they went well below the contact point with their swing (not uncommon), then you wanted to get the ball down to the serve and volleyers feet; they would not handle balls below the net very well; exactly what Federer did to Mischa Zverev at the Aussie semis (would have been more interesting if Mischa had occasionally hung back an instant and approached after his serve taking advantage of the short returns that were forcing him to hit up; ;but he never changed his strategy.)
don
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Replying to HockeyScout and Don_Budge about my student and the ball machine
The student in that video about has just turned 14 and was about to enter the 9th grade in high school. So he certainly had limited experience. In his wildest dreams, he would certainly love to be a tennis pro, but his goals more along the lines to be able to play college tennis and further his educational opportunities with tennis while getting to play tennis for the fun on it. And he has a good shot at that. He's still working
HockeyScout, the machine in this video is just a stock Playmate Genie. It's actually a great machine, about $7500. It can fire a sequence of up to 7 balls at varying intervals for each shot in the sequence. Early in the video, you can see I had two boys moving up and back for overheads and volleys off the one machine. But my machines on my court in Los Angeles are very different. I can fire a sequence of up to 9 balls changing the position as well as the nature of the ball for speed and spin. I have two machines on the court and the balls do not come automatically. I have to press a button for each ball and thereby, I can create realistic rhythm firing the next ball in any sequence as the last ball goes by where the opposing player would be. Because I have two machines, I fire the next ball in any sequence from the corner to which the player has hit their last shot, thereby creating realistic geometry. I can go from a blistierning topspin Nadal forehand to a short soft drop shot in about 2 balls; I need a ball in between to give the wheels a chance to slow down or speed up so it is not really possible to go from the fastest to the slowest in 1 ball, but I just use an intermediate ball to make it possible. I can actually program it so one machine fires a fast ball and the other a slow one and in that case I can fire fastest and slowest from alternate machines one right after the other. It's a fabulous system. The developer is a friend of mine and I got my machines from him in 2003. At that time, he actually loaned a set of the machines to the USTA for almost a year, but they just let them sit. Never took advantage of it. They are fabulous tools, but you have to think to use them. The biggest problem for kids learnlng to play is to have good competition. These machines would give a kid in Podunk, Idaho or a distant town in the Ukraine a chance to practice situational shots and sequences against high quality balls without needing a pro level hitting partner. Of course, he still needs to play, but the Global Tennis Teaching System is unlike anything else. Unfortunately, it didn't catch on at all. My friend has about 8 sets of the machine in storage in Delray Beach. You could probably get a set for a lot less than what I paid for mine. All said and done, I invested almost $40,000. Really too much. But I am still using them almost 14 years later. The electronics are a little buggy and you have to learn the ins and outs, but the basic machines are very sturdy and the motors are very strong. I made the mistake of trying to use them about 2 courts over from a cell phone tower and nothing worked; I went down 5 courts away and I was fine. The drills are transmitted to the machines wirelessly by Bluetooth from a Palm handheld unit.
So it's a little tricky, but I can take a world class top ten player and put him through drills that will imitate the stress the best players in the world face only in the quarters and later of Grand Slams, without relying on a hitter; and I don't even have to break a sweat. But usually I get the best work running 3 or 4 shot drills or even just 2 ball drills where the player bounces quickly back and forth from one shot to the next. I want live movement and I can get it with my machines better than any feed. You've probably seen the drill where Janko runs wide to hit a forehand and then has to run back around a marker before going back for the next ball; instead of running around that marker, I just give him a backhend he has to hit over there and I can make him run as fast as I deem necessary to get him to his limit. Imagine all the drills you see coaches doing putting balls in spots by hand feeding; I can put the balls in those same spots feeding with a ball at realistic speeds from across the court in realistic rhythm and geometry as far as the next ball coming from the corner the player hits to.
I move my machines around in a van when I need to take them somewhere. They weigh 175 lbs apiece. It's a pain, but well worth the effort.
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Your ball machine is brilliant. That is the focal point of my next conversation with you - how can I put together a machine that is better than what you have in place (if that is possible). I like it so much. You really have to show everyone that machine, and do a bit of a story on it here as its the best.
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I would say...put him in the ring. I would like to put my serious players in the ring...if I had any. I have always felt that tennis is a martial art. The ultimate martial art. Talk about Zen. Perhaps your daughter will be a pioneer in this regard. Training in this mental capacity is bound to pay huge dividends.Originally posted by hockeyscout View Post
Come to Sweden...bring your "Big Bucks". We'll open a multi-faceted facility. To begin with...some martial arts rooms (doubling as dance rooms), tennis courts (covered by a "bubble" in the winter) and the ultimate cash cow a golf driving range (also covered by a bubble in the winter). Get the picture. Lots of help from the government for foreigners starting up businesses. Maybe you could qualify as a political refugee. I'll sponsor you.
An afterthought...add a skating rink to the picture. Get it? hockeyscout? We'll work like a couple of "Donald Trumps". Nobody will outwork us. We'll end up moving to Monte Carlo because we make too much money for the Swedish Tax System.Comment
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