A New Teaching System: Forehand: Body Rotation

[10splayer]

John, I agree with what your saying but, to me, the swing style (linear momentum vs. angular momentum) you use will ultimately determine the degree of hip involvement. Not sure who Scott is but the gentleman with the brighter, light blue shirt in your video has more of a linear swing. If he involves the hips more, it "will" cause a disruption in his swing. Trying to blend 2 momentum types (linear vs. angular) won't be too successful. The taller gentleman with the beard, has a rotational swing, thus will fire his hips more. To me, the body parts involved is all situational, depended on the amount of time you have and whether you are hitting a defensive, neutral or offensive shot.
If you don't have time on the shot or you're on the defense - you will have a smaller axis of rotation. You may "only" be able to manipulate with your hand. An example of this is hitting a ball on the dead run. Arms and legs are pumping just to get to the ball, and all you're able to swing with is your hand. Have a little more time and you can swing with your shoulder (arm) and hand. But if you have time and looking to generate power, you need angular momentum to hit a "heavy ball", with the legs, core, shoulders and arms all involved. Driving off the ground and firing the hips will initiate the swing. If your swing is more linear, you won't be able to hit a true "heavy ball". Just my thoughts...

What do you mean by swing style linear vs angular?

[seano]

John, I agree with what your saying but, to me, the swing style (linear momentum vs. angular momentum) you use will ultimately determine the degree of hip involvement. Not sure who Scott is but the gentleman with the brighter, light blue shirt in your video has more of a linear swing. If he involves the hips more, it "will" cause a disruption in his swing. Trying to blend 2 momentum types (linear vs. angular) won't be too successful. The taller gentleman with the beard, has a rotational swing, thus will fire his hips more. To me, the body parts involved is all situational, depended on the amount of time you have and whether you are hitting a defensive, neutral or offensive shot.
If you don't have time on the shot or you're on the defense - you will have a smaller axis of rotation. You may "only" be able to manipulate with your hand. An example of this is hitting a ball on the dead run. Arms and legs are pumping just to get to the ball, and all you're able to swing with is your hand. Have a little more time and you can swing with your shoulder (arm) and hand. But if you have time and looking to generate power, you need angular momentum to hit a "heavy ball", with the legs, core, shoulders and arms all involved. Driving off the ground and firing the hips will initiate the swing. If your swing is more linear, you won't be able to hit a true "heavy ball". Just my thoughts...

[johnyandell]

To me there are two issues--the actual chain of events--but more importantly--how they are activated. I believe as the article states that trying to consciously rotate the hips throws the sequence off. If the coiling is good and the player "swings" the racket for the finish the activation sequence is automatic. Look at that video of Scott when he tried to "fire" them. He couldn't believe that players actually "try" to do that and the sequencing on hsi forehand is basically perfect. Not saying that cue won't work for somebody, but...

[seano]

Brian Gordon talks about different degrees of hip rotation depending if it's a type 1, 2, or 3 forehand. The type 1 is trunk dominated and has the hip/shoulder/arm working as a unit. Type 2 has less of a unit swing, with type 3 being an initial burst of the hips, then trunk, then shoulder, then arm involvement. A key component of the type 3 forehand is the arm working independent of the body.

[johnyandell]

What is your grip? My belief is that if the turn is good and the finish point on the swing is good, the rotation should take care of itself. But impossible to really say for you Peter without looking at some video.

I tried my forehand the other day and I noticed a couple things. First, it's hard to tell when I'm hitting the ball whether I'm square to the net or off by 10 or 15 degrees. Second, it felt better the more my shoulder was rotated at contact: seemed like contact was more in front, the arm can release more naturally into the line of the shot, and the ball went deeper. So, is it better to over-rotate the shoulders than under-rotate? Are there pitfalls to over-rotation?

What do you guys think?

thanks,
Peter

[johnyandell]

Thank you much!

There are so many technicalities on the forehand that even experienced coaches forget. John Yandell reminds us all about the torso rotation and all other body parts that combine to drive through the forehand. Once again, great video, and the explanation is quite simple and effective. Well done John.

[don_budge]

Golf on the Run...

Golf is the gold standard regards technique. The nature of the sport demands this sort of attention to detail. Ben Hogan wrote a book called "The Five Fundamentals of Golf". Every tennis coach should probably read it. Having "mastered" both sports I have come to the conclusion that tennis is golf on the run. The description of the body rotation on the golf swing is very useable with regards to the tennis swings. Brilliant stuff from Ben Hogan.

http://lessons.squaretosquaremethod.com/lessons/xe1-members/timing-of-hips-in-downswing/?utm_source=sq-internal&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=sq-internal-xe1-content&utm_content=sq-internal-xe1-content-timing-of-hips-downswing

[seano]

Swivel discs are just round discs that rotate. I got mine at oncourtoffcourt.com. These are plastic ones, you can find more expensive, better quality ones on the internet.

[doctorhl]

What is a swivel disc and where do you get one? I saw a YouTube video to make a homemade swivel disc to initiate the hips in golf. After a year layoff from surgery, I reworked my strokes from old school, linear, wood racket eastern forehand. It took about 10 years to unlearn the motor memory and move to the semi western Rotary swing. I just now mastered the feel of the small hip turn to initiate the lag in shoulder turn. I increased my power by 25 to 30 % and could hit it harder( with equivalent control)then I could when playing in college. But I eventually blew two lumbar discs because I think the muscles were not trainable at age 60 to learn a new motor path with the increased power.

[seano]

10s player -

I have found that if your initial movement is only the shoulder turn, then you are not engaging the legs and hips. There's a very subtle hip turn first before the shoulder turn that iniates the lag effect that allows you to create, store, then release energy. After the shoulder turn, the hips open first to create even more torque in the core and the elastic energy is further stretched creating even more effortless power. The work of these opposing forces allows for a smooth and relaxed motion. I noticed this effect more and more when I used the swivel discs and was amazed how quickly my students picked it up. All ages and abilities.

Sean

[10splayer]

Particularly with juniors, I will introduce a rotational swing with swivel discs. It's very interesting to learn how inportant the hips really are on all the strokes. The hips initiate the shoulder turn in preparation causing the initial lag. And again whWhaen they open up to really get your momentum firing. I often use the term "waggle" to describe it.

What do you mean, by "the hips initiate the shoulder turn in prep causing the initial lag?

[seano]

Particularly with juniors, I will introduce a rotational swing with swivel discs. It's very interesting to learn how inportant the hips really are on all the strokes. The hips initiate the shoulder turn in preparation causing the initial lag. And again when they open up to really get your momentum firing. I often use the term "waggle" to describe it.

[stotty]

My understanding of elastic energy and the stretch-shortening cycle, along with Brian Gordon's research. The firing of the hips (or separation) is a more subtle movement, which initiates the lag effect. This subtle lag creates torque and everything that follows is set into motion and intensifies. Once the shoulders are square to the net, their job is done (for the most part). If you've done the Type 3 forehand correctly, the final 90% of rotation is caused by the independent movement of the arm (a key element in Brian's research). That finishes with the right shoulder pointing towards the target. If you watch some of Federer's forehand in super slow-mo, it's incredible how the body quiets once the shoulders are facing the net and the arm accelerates to complete the rotation, a thing of beauty.

Great post, seano...eloquent stuff.

I think John has a point when he says "how does this happen"?. As coaches how can we ensure our more talented students fire the hips correctly? What should a player focus on to make it happen? What should a coach say and do to make it happen?

I think coaching these days is a three way road. You have people like Brian Gordon delivering the science, you have the coach, and you have the student. Brian Gordon's work is fruitless if coaches cannot convey and teach it in ways that can be interpreted accurately by students then put into practice. Coaches have to find ways to make pennies drop. I seem to remember Brian saying in one of his articles that ultimately it comes down to coaching intuition to deliver and find ways to make the science happen. There are few silver bullets for difficult problems in coaching. You need a big tool bag and an intuitive teaching brain if we are ever going to be any good at this lark.

I once levelled with a girl who had a problematic serve. I threw time out of the window (as in my hourly rate) and told her we were (note I use "we") going to tackle her serve until we solved the problem and mapped a way forward. I told her I wasn't sure which means would work the best and I would be experimenting, and if she had patience and stamina we would succeed. By the end of the morning we had cracked it.

I was lucky in that the girl was a free spirit and open-minded about coaching. Plus no one had been able to help her with her serve until the point. She had given up. Which is always a good point for coach to step in, oddly enough.

Does she have a great serve now? No, but it works and doesn't let her down anymore? Sometimes player and coach must accept a shot isn't there. Insisting there is would be to imply every girl has the potential to serve like Serena.

And, yes, Federer's forehand in slow motion is probably the most beautiful sight there is in tennis.

Stotty