Interactive Forum: Racket Head Speed

[gzhpcu]

I did not think that the term "loose grip" applied at impact. The loose grip is kept during the phases between impact, to keep your stroke nice and fluid.
I posted a study done some years back on the relationship between racket head speed, tightness of grip and serve speed. You need to tighten the grip at impact to better impart mass to the shot. I would think that you instinctively tighten up at impact...

[EricMatuszewski]

Some differences of these two examples have been discussed to great length in the Biomechanics section of the forum under "Forearm supination".

Maria has a habit of pre-suppinating and pre-flexing which I believe makes it impossible to maximize her spin potential. She was probably trained by someone to do this.

Federer on the other hand (like Nadal) is leading the way in starting the flex/extend joint and the supination/pronation joint in a relaxed neutral position. Combining this with his longer lever (his straight arm)during acceleration to the ball and great use of the right hip extensors, Fed gets some massive elastic like movements at those forearm/wrist joints which acount for his racket tip "dissapearing" and the finish position he ends up going to.

These are only my theories, I don't have the technology to prove them very well (only poor mans experiments, consumer video cameras, timers video editing software, etc).

Happy hitting and best wishes with your own experiments!
Eric Matuszewski

[gzhpcu]

I think your theory makes sense and holds up pretty well Eric...

[EricMatuszewski]

Thanks for sharing your strokes Phil,

It's been a fun experiment trying to see how well we can trade ideas like this over the web. This will probably be my last day posting here as I'm cutting back on my expenses and have cancelled a while ago (my subscription runs out tommorrow) but if you ever want to try this again please email me at ematuszewski@hotmail.com.

Also..
I have some great footage of Sharapova practicing I'll have to get to you somehow, (I'm still trying to get the compression right) I might make a web site for my students and put all that footage over the years up on it.


I'll always be jealous of those courts..

Your freind from across the pond,
Eric Matuszewski

P.S. are the video's downloadable yet on Heaths site? He told me a while ago he was working on it.

[gzhpcu]

Thanks for sharing your strokes Phil,

It's been a fun experiment trying to see how well we can trade ideas like this over the web. This will probably be my last day posting here as I'm cutting back on my expenses and have cancelled a while ago (my subscription runs out tommorrow) but if you ever want to try this again please email me at ematuszewski@hotmail.com.

Also..
I have some great footage of Sharapova practicing I'll have to get to you somehow, (I'm still trying to get the compression right) I might make a web site for my students and put all that footage over the years up on it.


I'll always be jealous of those courts..

Your freind from across the pond,
Eric Matuszewski

P.S. are the video's downloadable yet on Heaths site? He told me a while ago he was working on it.

Sorry to see you go Eric. Thanks again for the interesting exchanges!

Yes, we have great clay courts over here in Switzerland. Should you ever come over to Switzerland, let me know.

In answer to your question, no Heath's videos are not downloadable.

All the best and good luck,
Phil Picuri

[brett701]

Video not visible

I can't see any visible videos. Are they still posted?

[johnyandell]

Click back to the first page.

[uspta1882566509]

Measuring racket head spead

Hey guys,

Does anybody here have any experience with measuring racket head speed ?
I bought one of those swing speed radar things that are frequently used in Golf and tried using it yet it seems to be very inaccurate.

I sometimes let my students swing in front of it and tell them to swing as fast as possible...if you do that often enough you can get good increases in racket head speed apart from any technical aspects with the stroke.

Thanks,

Florian Meier

[brett701]

Hey guys,

Does anybody here have any experience with measuring racket head speed ?
I bought one of those swing speed radar things that are frequently used in Golf and tried using it yet it seems to be very inaccurate.

I sometimes let my students swing in front of it and tell them to swing as fast as possible...if you do that often enough you can get good increases in racket head speed apart from any technical aspects with the stroke.

Thanks,

Florian Meier

thats why i wanted a way to measure it. i figured my body would figure out the best way to swing faster.

[bottle]

STP--don't add it to your oil. (I hate acronyms today.)

flexor stretch first then pronator stretch-- no?

or does somebody think they should be simultaneous?

Eric? (you've written a lot of good stuff on this topic--
any light to throw here?)

[EricMatuszewski]

The thread that keeps on going...

flexor stretch first then pronator stretch-- no?

or does somebody think they should be simultaneous?

Eric? (you've written a lot of good stuff on this topic--
any light to throw here?)

Interesting question bottle.

You ask what "should" happen.

I'd love to be able to make a recommendation based on some extensively critiqued studies and and stacks of journals but we ain't got em! So I'll just tell you what I see on Fed (assuming that he has pretty close to the most effective forehand that's ever existed) and try to connect it to some anatomical theory and my personal experience.

From looking at one high speed clip of Fed trying to "roll" a ball, the hyperextension and supination (actions that stretch the flexors and pronators) seem to both start simultaneously (or so close together that I can't separate them with my eyes).

As a coach, I've never seen any reason to tell anyone to separate the two actions. Keeping focus on looseness once a student knows all the movements of the joints from my experience is the way to go.

Also, keep in mind, these are high strain actions (a lot of tension gets put on some relatively flimsy structures) so it makes sense to work up gradually and even to do some specific strength training of the pronators and the flexors to help protect yourself from injury as well as to increase performance.

There is a journal article somewhere I remember looking at that studied the pronator strength of the dominant and nondominant arms of elite tennis players and concluded that the dominant arm is stronger. (duh)

See a certified strength training specialist to get some coaching on how to strengthen these small but important muscles.


Florian,
I agree, a cheap radar type speed check for racket speed would be a nice thing to have.

When I first got my PTR certification in 94" we were given a racket speed check device that attached to the racket to try out. It didn't seem very accurate. I think it worked by measuring deceleration when you impacted the ball.

There's got to be a way to make something like this for an accessable cost.

[uspta146749877]

deacceleration

Interesting question bottle.

You ask what "should" happen.

I'd love to be able to make a recommendation based on some extensively critiqued studies and and stacks of journals but we ain't got em! So I'll just tell you what I see on Fed (assuming that he has pretty close to the most effective forehand that's ever existed) and try to connect it to some anatomical theory and my personal experience.

From looking at one high speed clip of Fed trying to "roll" a ball, the hyperextension and supination (actions that stretch the flexors and pronators) seem to both start simultaneously (or so close together that I can't separate them with my eyes).

As a coach, I've never seen any reason to tell anyone to separate the two actions. Keeping focus on looseness once a student knows all the movements of the joints from my experience is the way to go.

Also, keep in mind, these are high strain actions (a lot of tension gets put on some relatively flimsy structures) so it makes sense to work up gradually and even to do some specific strength training of the pronators and the flexors to help protect yourself from injury as well as to increase performance.

There is a journal article somewhere I remember looking at that studied the pronator strength of the dominant and nondominant arms of elite tennis players and concluded that the dominant arm is stronger. (duh)

See a certified strength training specialist to get some coaching on how to strengthen these small but important muscles.


Florian,
I agree, a cheap radar type speed check for racket speed would be a nice thing to have.

When I first got my PTR certification in 94" we were given a racket speed check device that attached to the racket to try out. It didn't seem very accurate. I think it worked by measuring deceleration when you impacted the ball.

There's got to be a way to make something like this for an accessable cost.

Hi,
what do you mean by:
"measuring deceleration" ?

[EricMatuszewski]

Measuring Deceleration

Measuring how fast the racket slows down when it strikes the ball.

The device looked like a little graduated cylinder with a pellet in it that attached to the racket throat. The pellet would move a land on an increment inside the cylinder while you swung the racket.

I doubted it's accuracy because too many people were getting the same scores.

Eric

[bottle]

Simplicity

Thanks for the answer, which I like except for the part about added exercises. I can see the point-- especially if wrist layback is going from the 90 degrees I do like to more than 120 degrees right at contact which I don't like. I tried something like that, thanks to your discussions of pre-load. I hit pretty good shots and won my match, but I have to say, in the sequence I'm about to discuss I can't see anything of the sort (but maybe it's just me or Roger's particular shot). Personally, I think a person can still hit a great shot without so much lengthening and margerine.

But I've been fooling around with my "modern retro" forehand-- that
expression from Mr. Federer himself-- for so long that my hope is those
little muscles are plenty strong, or at least strong enough for my purpose. In any case, I'm old and don't have time for other extras since I plan to fool around with this shot more, more and ever more. It is a kind of supernumerary pleasure in another universe parallel to my tennis.

Before I read your answer, just asking the question propelled me to high speed archive, FH WIDE REAR (#4), which I'd flash here if I was computer- literate. In that one, Roger's arm gets as straight as he wants it before any forward rotation of his body. The hitting side of the racket is up enough to expose itself a little to the back fence. The racket is beyond his hand toward the back fence. (This all seems like special cocking to me and portends a hell of a blow. What I saw, though, and then tried, was momentum from the direction of his opening elbow. In addition, he makes some momentum from swinging his upper arm back a little. In other words he's doing more than passively extending his arm-- and I can tell you this: IT FEELS GREAT!) The body then rotates forward against both kinds of flex you and Brian Gordon and the Swiss fellow with the ten initials have been discussing. So yes, the two flexes are simultaneous, and I have eliminated something else in my own forehand-- needless sequence and arm extension during the actual forward rotation. If Roger does any straight-arming (American football talk) it's into the back fence, not into the ball. Then the body takes racket right around to the ball with not much internal happening in the arm-- not yet. Contact in this case is to the side, not out in front since Roger is hitting down the line. It's so simple! And of course I've been to the court and come back exhilarated-- why else would I be going on so much.

Maybe the reason Roger never has been caught talking about his forehand
is that he would be embarrassed at describing such simplicity. Maybe he also is afraid, despite the huge amount of evidence to the contrary, that people are educable.

[sejsel]

Looks like Federer is loading all the big muscles, and the wrist, at exactly the same time, and let them all go at once!

Federer is the perfect model of optimizing mechanics. His effortless strokes makes anybody think that playing tennis is so easy. I compare his forehand with Sampras: classical, powerful, heavy, deadly....
Obviously, Federer hits the ball more in front that Sampras, but in both players seems to me that rhe racquet is an extension of their bodies.

About Sharapova, I don't like her shots. She hits too flat and, in my opinion, her strokes lack of the grace of, for example, Henin or Clijters.

On the subject of grace, Henin or Clijsters are really a far cry from anything that can be called gracefull in the execution, and Henins forehand is known to be a suspect in technical terms, "locking" in the backswing phase of the stroke, for example.
Sharapova has excellent strokes technically, hitting flat is also her style of the play due to her long-time coach who insisted on being able to hit through the ball primarily on both wings. But rest assured that she can hit delicate top-spin "whips" on both wings if and when needed.
I don't think that Federer is perfect model for optimizing bio-mechanics, his forehand is just incredible and excellent stroke, more diverse than any forehand before. But I think Pete had more "natural" and relaxed stroke altogether, especially in moving the racquet from the very beginning of the stroke backwards (Federer has more of, what I call "twitching" motion in generating and executing the backswing), and also (Pete) has second cleanest wrist action in hitting drive forehand in modern tennis.
The problem with Pete's forehand is that there are few people being able to hit it in the same fashion in technical terms.
Do you remember Henri Leconte's forehand, or that french girl Ann-Gaëlle-Sidot, by the way - on the subject of forehands?
Oh, and of course, Federer is bound to hit more in front of the body - since he hits with basically semi-western grip, whereas Pete has predominantly eastern. There is, of course, certain degree of tolerance even in that regard.