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Plisikova beat Serena Williams. Her serve seems to have no pronation.
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Plisikova beat Serena Williams. Her serve seems to have no pronation.
Last edited by gzhpcu; 09-09-2016, 08:35 AM. -
What a great picture. It's amazing that at the highest levels of the women's game, this can occur. -
Somehow I really don't think she is all that concerned about it. Reaching the finals of the U. S. Open has more or less validated her...and her motion. Right or wrong. She is in the finals. A dream come true. She will either make it work for her today or it will let her down. Good luck to her! God bless her.Originally posted by seano View PostComment
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Pliskova and Kerber in the finals of the US Open. I love it. Two of the best nationalities...(Behind Swiss and Swedish of course) Good luck to each woman. Hoping for an awesome final.
The Pliskova serve is a major weapon, just wonder how much more of a weapon it could be if this small serve issue was fixed.
Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca RatonComment
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From a medical perspective, what injuries is she potentially setting herself up for?Comment
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A 13-year-old like Eugene Bouchard, or a top 1000 pro – the work they need to do is pretty simple to see.
But, there is ZERO anyone on this forum could tell you about this ladys serve, and what she is doing right or wrong. Me included.
First off, you need high speed video, and second off you would need about a month in the gym, and on the court observing diligently to learn what she does and why she does it. Every athlete develops anti-technique to compensate for areas of weakness, and sometimes its best not to do much as you may just end up creating mental and physical confusion. A little respect sometimes for an athlete intuitiveness pays off sometimes as a coach.
If I worked with this player it would be a ton of small steps. It’s a world class athlete, and a lots has occurred to get her to that level of performance which is what I would want to understand.
1.
I’d start by calling every coach she has ever worked with, and having discussions there on what was done from day one to get her to the current point of her development. Coaches in tennis tend not to call other coaches, physical trainers and others who have worked with an athlete before. I don’t know why. That would be my first step. What kind of drills does she like? What was hard for her to learn? What does she hate to work on? What are her values? Etc.
2.
It pains me seeing coaches looking at a serve and training what they see as weaknesses on the first week, or even month or a relationship. Its something that takes a long, long time to analyze. I’d touch nothing - ZERO. You can’t. Elite athletes have people offering them the world, begging to come coach them for free, tennis academies wooing them and every expert offering his two cents (and, most are well meaning). And, they tend to get tuned out. You have to really tread carefully, and it’s a long term process development because most great athletes tend to also be a bit belligerent, stubborn and sensitive. Let that athlete come to you, and let believe they have sorted it out on their own so they take real ownership.
3.
First off, I think the motion works for her, so, I would tell her that. Congrats, you are doing great. Tell me more about why you are at this level, and where do you want to see yourself go to, and what do you think I can help you with, or vise versa?
4.
Nutrition and lifestyle habits (sleeping) would be # 1 deal. Before, any other discussion. Generally I tell my athletes to show up for their first practice at 530 am. That weeds out the pretenders. No one is an exception – if number one in the world wants to do work, then okay, lets see where they are at and if they are serious or riding the fence. I call it my shit test. Generally speaking athletes and parents are bull-shitters. So, that is a good test. 530 am for me, means 500 am because your warming up and making sure you are the first person in the team that shows up. I get so many coaches offering advice, and I tell them, come out, love to hear what you have to say, we start at 530. Most bail right there or come up with an excuse. And, really, I have no time for that person. Certain guys show up at 5 am decade after decade, and those people are what I call winners. There is a fine line between being good to great, and that is one of the big tests. The enthusiasm to get up in the morning and show up, and the intelligence to commit to going to bed at 7 pm or 8 pm. Small things are a big deal. Even going from 10 in the world to 1, it’s a major deal, and its an insane lifestyle trying to make that jump on a consistent basis (to be playing at a # 1 level, which Serena has done for 187 weeks or so).
5.
In terms of development - what I would do as a coach is look long and hard at how how everything is functioning and track it daily to ensure there are no weak areas, joint issues or inflammation. Testing, testing and testing. I would want to first understand how that athlete functions, and if there are imbalances. For instance, give you an example. My ten-year-old did not play today. She failed her functional movement test at the start of the day. Grip strength was down by 13 percent, and movement in the 10 percent range. So, forget it. She did some specialization exercises yesterday focusing on her overall strength (climbing up a wall four times, and it gassed her). Her system needed more time to recover. Everything was just shot. The previous day she had a great day. Everyone was gung ho at the start of the day! Let’s build on yesterday. But, after about eight minutes of our daily screening process, I shut it down. So, that would be a key coming in as a new coach, shutting it down, and not overtraining and getting to gung-ho for big results right off the get go. Its all a process and your body will rebel.
6.
I’d look at the arm. Get out a radar gun. Serve 10. Test. See the shape of the arm. Serve another 10. Test. Etc. Before you can teach technique (with a high level player like this at least), you need to see what breaks down, and how it breaks down. I’d test it the next day, see how it recovered. Test, test, test and test. I would imagine a lot of players break down in their game due to there training, and if you don’t test, you can’t predict what will happen. Coaches need to know what is breaking down before they can fix technique. Every teach a player something, and you think they got it? And, a day later, they don’t? Well, it pays to really find out what the cause is, and it is usually related to a lot of the factors I speak of here. Ball counts are so important to me, I monitor that one probably more than MLB pitching coaches. You need to, your trying to develop a healthy athlete in all phases of the developmental process.
6.
I would have the player break down for me what they do, and why they do it. Explain it. Tell me. And, then I would think long and hard about what holes there may be in the story. If I have talked to all of there coaches respectfully, I will be able to see patterns and know where certain A, B and C’s weren’t put into place properly. Now, my ABC’s will be different than tennis_chiro or don_budge’s, and that is a good thing (not a reflection on them, as athlete development ends up being a team building game once a player hits a certain level of world class performance in any sport).
7.
In terms of coaching - I see coaches trying to emulate Federer, Sampras, Roddick, and that is insane. These players first off have double joints, and special magical rotator cuffs. You simply can’t go and teach a player to serve without being very mindful of what you are dealing with exactly. I see a lot of service motions coaches are teaching to athletes with poor muscle setups, and I know these athletes simply do not have the tools to keep the shoulder joint in place with what the coaches want done. Generally, not a good idea to get ahead of yourself, and prove to the athlete you are the greatest coach in the world and will change things from day one. Cultures take a long time to build properly, and by stepping in to quickly you will take away the athletes accountability. Naturally you want any athlete thinking they have come to conclusions on their own as they will be more likely to want to use a tool they see as their own.
8.
I am always mindful of the fact my players tend to play superbly with there hips. Its what I convey extremely well, as that’s real easy to teach. Quick hips equals, smarter racket head, and, yes, more force in the small muscle groups in the shoulder. Every sport is a full body mechanic, and understanding how to set up an athlete to dissipate vibration, buckling and vibration is a big key.
9.
When I have these things set up to my wants, and needs, I would identify specific serving coaches, and trainers, who get points 1 to 8 (or, are willing to understand them at a base level). I’d generally do a lot of off-court meetings, see how willing they are to work in a team setting and discuss in advance planning. The work a serving coach does needs to mesh with what the Head Coach, Physical Trainer, Movement Specialist and Massage Specialist is doing, for the best health interests of the athlete obviously. It's called Quality Control Coaching. It's working very well in the NFL. Get everyone on the same page. Generally speaking, coaches tend to have specific levels of expertise, and you can figure it out pretty quickly who knows what, and how what they do can be incorporated seamlessly into a program.
10.
The issue with bringing in coaches or experts or hitting partners is they can be toxic to your team system, so they need to be vetted out carefully and trained. You see sometimes guys coming in, and it doesn't work, and the player is worse off for it. Novac has a few disasters like this with his serve. Intelligent design is such an important factor in a young players program, and one has to pick and choose the right people in the right windows of career development for a young player or it just won’'t happen.
It's easy to sit in from the outside and make observations. But, for the people on the inside doing the job its has so many complex factors. Plus, working on the serve, and dealing with scheduling, injuries, its chaotic and tough.
Last edited by hockeyscout; 09-10-2016, 06:04 AM.Comment
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Which is why I made no judgement, just pointed it out...
The serve is a very individual thing...
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I know, I agree.Originally posted by gzhpcu View PostWhich is why I made no judgement, just pointed it out... The serve is a very individual thing...
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This is what true forearm pronation looks like with elbow hyper-extension.Comment
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I've seen high level players add internal rotation and add mph and spin, including one guy in the top 10 I can't mention. It's an experiment worth trying...Comment
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I just watched a little bit of some highlights between Angelique Kerber vs Karolina Pliskova at the U. S. Open.Originally posted by seano View Post
The cameras were not zero'd in on her when she was serving but on the whole I would have to say that I liked her delivery of the racquet head to the ball a little better than Kerber. Looking at one still photo is probably not a good way of drawing any conclusions about a players service motion. I am a little unsure of what the poster's motivation for posting that photo were. My conclusion...no conclusion.
You have won me over on the Czech thing...these people have an affinity for tennis. You've had some help in this regard. Recently I came across a tennis student...a very nice and charming Czech lady 43 years old who I taught how to play tennis is a couple of weeks. When I say taught to play tennis I mean to say that she picked up the entire game in bits in a matter of 7 or 8 hours.Originally posted by klacr View Post
Yesterdays lesson was pretty amazing. God Bless this young lady Karolina Plisikova. May she inspire many girls around the world with her game and charm...not to mention her service motion.
Last edited by don_budge; 09-10-2016, 10:37 PM.Comment
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We've taken two trips to Czech. Wonderful tennis country. It's a country on our shortlist of where we could potentially end up.Originally posted by don_budge View Post
I just watched a little bit of some highlights between Angelique Kerber vs Karolina Pliskova at the U. S. Open.
The cameras were not zero'd in on her when she was serving but on the whole I would have to say that I liked her delivery of the racquet head to the ball a little better than Kerber. Looking at one still photo is probably not a good way of drawing any conclusions about a players service motion. I am a little unsure of what the poster's motivation for posting that photo were. My conclusion...no conclusion.
You have won me over on the Czech thing...these people have an affinity for tennis. You've had some help in this regard. Recently I came across a tennis student...a very nice and charming Czech lady 43 years old who I taught how to play tennis is a couple of weeks. When I say taught to play tennis I mean to say that she picked up the entire game in bits in a matter of 7 or 8 hours.
Yesterdays lesson was pretty amazing. God Bless this young lady Karolina Plisikova. May she inspire many girls around the world with her game and charm...not to mention her service motion.
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The Hitch in the Backswing...
At 3:46 in the video posted above there is a nice shot of her service motion. Not the best but good enough for the old eye to pick up on a couple of anomalies.Originally posted by don_budge View Post
I just watched a little bit of some highlights between Angelique Kerber vs Karolina Pliskova at the U. S. Open.
The cameras were not zero'd in on her when she was serving but on the whole I would have to say that I liked her delivery of the racquet head to the ball a little better than Kerber. Looking at one still photo is probably not a good way of drawing any conclusions about a players service motion. I am a little unsure of what the poster's motivation for posting that photo were. My conclusion...no conclusion.
God Bless this young lady Karolina Plisikova. May she inspire many girls around the world with her game and charm...not to mention her service motion.
First of all...Karolina uses a very pronounced pinpoint. She brings that back foot up to the front foot. I have always felt that this causes some timing problems. There have been some great pinpoint stances...this is not an argument. But I have seen some very high tosses which is to me a sign of inefficiency in the motion.
In the Plisikova she starts her delivery in a nice relaxed starting position, properly lined up. But you will notice that in the course of her backswing there is a very pronounced accelerated phase that "helps" her to time the motion and her toss. Her toss appears to be a pretty good heave up in the air so this little hitch prevents her from throwing it out of the stadium. Slight exaggeration.
Interestingly enough...this little hitch prevents her from actually completing the limits of her potential backswing as the track of the racquet head takes a rather pronounced short cut to the position from which she actually begins her forwards motion.
It isn't the biggest hitch that the average tennis aficionado will dwell on but it all adds up to minimizing some of the potential in the swing. That being said perhaps it isn't priority number one in the woman's game to have a perfect serve motion as the points are decided in endless backcourt duels...much like the men's game is. Same game...different clothes in the words of Ed Atkinson. Even the clothes are starting to resemble each other. Did anyone else notice how the men are starting to wear "hot pink"?
The new normal.
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hockeyscout, great post! Like reading a tennisplayer article.Comment
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