Interactive Forum September 2016: Denis Shapovalov

[stotty]

He has a great serve and big forehand but his backhand take back could be a bit too high,would be interested to see how handles low balls or faster deep balls coming to that side.But looks very impressive guess his recent results show that.

[bottle]

Yeah, I hate the big backhands of this guy and Wawrinka and Thiem and Gasquet. Great shots but not for old persons such as myself and other reasonable persons. TOO MUCH ARM! Brevify and slow down the arm and let the body do the work. I'm with the late Vic Braden on this one.

[hockeyscout]

He has a great serve and big forehand but his backhand take back could be a bit too high,would be interested to see how handles low balls or faster deep balls coming to that side.But looks very impressive guess his recent results show that.

I would never be critical of the moms coaching. She is the best in the country. If his hands are in that position they are there for a sound reason. Keep in mind the boy is just 17, and certain things will correct themselves as he gets older and stronger. There is not a seventeen year old on planet earth who handles deep balls or pace better than this kid. Amazing really how every tennis coach in Canada hated the kids game and said he'd fail with his moms crazy methods and one handed backhand. I think it was a rather brilliant job as the boy is not naturally athletic, big or strong like a few other Canadian youngsters who he has had passed up. So many kids are taught a Junior game, and get exposed at 16 and 17. This kids going to be okay. This kid knows how to win matches. He is so smart. I hope the young man has the sense to stay with mama and the maturity to be respectful to his parents because the next 3 to 4 years will be tricky and mamas smarts will help him get over some big hurdles in the pro ranks.

[nickw]

“If you are teaching your players to imitate the techniques of the top players in the game, you are teaching them to be a generation behind the next wave of champions.” - Nick Saviano

Hockeyscout may be crazy and may be right at the same time. It's the kind of "crazy" that makes wild, amazing things happen. Either way, he's firm in his convictions and what he says is interesting. Lots of great info. Tennis is constantly evolving. The more we understand about mechanics and what we foresee in the future will never hurt us.

Agreed, and I like the Saviano quote. The most important thing for me though, is not to interfere with what a player is showing a natural ability to do, regardless of whether it's out-dated, in line with current techniques, or indeed something bold and different. There is evidence of that on the tour everywhere you look. Most coaches would despair with a player who insisted on playing with flat hitting, chip and charge, serve and volley. If Karlovic and Stepanek can use that so effectively at 37 yrs old, why couldn't one of the 'nextgen' be successful playing like that? If anything, an unusual style is an advantage, as other players aren't used to playing against it. Stepanek has hammered some decent players over the last 12 months, you can just imagine those opponents having mentally checked out of trying to find a solution to his style.

Some great stuff in this thread! Definitely it's about using the junior years to build a game that will stand up on the pro tour, but there's many different styles that have the potential to work. I'll look out with interest at how Shapovalov fares over the next few years trying to establish himself at tour level. Wasn't it around 10 years ago that most coaches were saying the one-handed backhand was finished at pro level?

[don_budge]

hockeyscout...keeping your chest on the ball

“If you are teaching your players to imitate the techniques of the top players in the game, you are teaching them to be a generation behind the next wave of champions.” - Nick Saviano


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

I am not certain how Nick Saviano meant this statement to be understood. But standing alone to me it is sheer and utter nonsense. There is nothing new under the sun. Technique today is only the natural progression when you make the equipment so much bigger and lighter. Nothing has changed in the fundamental elements of the swing. Zero...nada. It's all a pipe dream for tennis coaches to sell themselves as the latest and the greatest. If you teach a kid the proper fundamentals as they have been taught for the last fifty years that I personally know of...they will evolve into their own game. Just as tennis players always have. No two look exactly alike...like grains of sand or snowflakes.

But, you're a baseball guy at heart as well (and golf), so, you understand these things.

I always have to kick myself in the ass and remind myself to go back to that basic time and time again (balls in the air).

The tough part is the success that happens, and not getting suckered into losing the roots of what you did in the past.

Don't forget basketball hockeyscout. I was Earvin "Magic" Johnson before he was "Magic". I played all five positions. My junior varsity coaches only play at the very end of the game was "give the ball to Navarro". I loved basketball and the crossover skills that it teaches one to play tennis are perhaps second to none in terms of other sports. Offense...defense...sideways. Fake right...go left. Fake left...go right. Anticipation. Transitioning from defense to offense and vice versa. Low center of gravity...split steps not necessary.

Nothing hockeyscout has said or wrote about is remotely crazy or even controversial. Interesting comments about the actual implement that is being used to strike the ball. I spend very little time talking about the racquet early on in a student's education. Mostly I am yelling at them to "get into position"!

Group Lesson #1 with a threesome of Swedish beauties the other day (age 32, 35 and newly divorced 40). First volleying technique. The lesson in the technique was how to move the racquet into position to go to the ball with the sternum. Introduction to forehand and backhand volleys was very successful. Next...the forehand. Hitting balls out of the air with a full swing. The swinging volley. While I advocate never using the swinging volley in a match or play...I do use it to train the swing. Next week the backhand and they will be playing tennis by the end of the second half of the lesson. There's a fourth lady too...she wasn't there for the first lesson.

The forty year old told me that someone told here that it wasn't possible to learn how to play tennis at forty. My answer to that was she was holding the trump card...she had me as her teacher.

As the student progresses the implement comes more and more into play and discussion. Usually about the time that tactics come into the lessons the racquet is more and more part of the discussion. But the fundamental that the body is conduit to swinging the racquet remains the same. This never will change.

Once upon a time I was having some difficulty with bunker shots and this fellow...just an average fellow offered the following advice to me. "Keep your chest on the ball". I went out that weekend and played the best tournament that I ever played...in golf that is. That was the single swing thought that I kept repeating to myself over every single shot around the golf course. I will never forget on hole number fifteen...I hit my approach iron into a bunker that was some eight feet or so below the green. The ball was plugged. I blasted out a meter from the hole and sank the putt for par. My playing partners were astounded. Perhaps it was pure luck...but I will never forget telling myself..."keep your chest on the ball".

Golfers have been on to this forever. I teach golf too...over here in Sweden. Tennis is nothing but...golf on the run (with basketball movement).

[don_budge]

One Door Closes...then Another One Opens...

With Roger Federer's star waning...to catch another rising star is our only hope. Is it going to be Denis Shapovalov? This was my initial impression about Denis. Notice that I anticipated John's current September Interactive Forum. I wonder if his objective was Kyrgios?

Here´s a new kid on the block. He just knocked off Nick Kyrgios 7-6, 3-6, 6-3. I like him much better than some of the other "Next Generation" nobodies. This kid has some flair...he's left-handed too. Kyrgios is what you might call a "soft competitor". He doesn't want to get his hands dirty. He's a lousy role-model. Denis Shapovalov...17 years old.

I wonder if John Yandell got any film on this kid...I wouldn't put it past him. Even though his objective may have been Kyrgios. Grigor Dimitrov next in the lefty Canuck's sights...the Bulgarian Playboy has been really struggling this year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhoB4COtwSI

The jury is of course still out. Denis is out on the Challenger's Tour trying to establish himself in the world of tennis professionals. Man...he looked good against Nick "The Jerk" Kyrgios. But Nick is not exactly the gold standard to measure by. He's been known to play it soft. I'm not certain his heart was in the match against the kid...Denis Shapovalov.

The tennis world certainly could use another fiesta left-handed tennis player playing with beautifully sculpted fundamentals. If it was his mother who was the architect behind this piece of work...lots of praise for the great job. I remember a another rather feisty American left-hander who more or less stayed at the very top of the game for some twenty years. Jimmy Connors.

We need a hero in our midst. Without Roger we are lacking that "Boy who would be King" personna. Roger never lost that boyish charm either. It's too much to ask of Denis of course...but let's hope all the same that he continues to develop and evolve his game into something that is ultimately a force in the tennis world.

[hockeyscout]

hockeyscout...keeping your chest on the ball










I am not certain how Nick Saviano meant this statement to be understood. But standing alone to me it is sheer and utter nonsense. There is nothing new under the sun. Technique today is only the natural progression when you make the equipment so much bigger and lighter. Nothing has changed in the fundamental elements of the swing. Zero...nada. It's all a pipe dream for tennis coaches to sell themselves as the latest and the greatest. If you teach a kid the proper fundamentals as they have been taught for the last fifty years that I personally know of...they will evolve into their own game. Just as tennis players always have. No two look exactly alike...like grains of sand or snowflakes.










Don't forget basketball hockeyscout. I was Earvin "Magic" Johnson before he was "Magic". I played all five positions. My junior varsity coaches only play at the very end of the game was "give the ball to Navarro". I loved basketball and the crossover skills that it teaches one to play tennis are perhaps second to none in terms of other sports. Offense...defense...sideways. Fake right...go left. Fake left...go right. Anticipation. Transitioning from defense to offense and vice versa. Low center of gravity...split steps not necessary.




Nothing hockeyscout has said or wrote about is remotely crazy or even controversial. Interesting comments about the actual implement that is being used to strike the ball. I spend very little time talking about the racquet early on in a student's education. Mostly I am yelling at them to "get into position"!

Group Lesson #1 with a threesome of Swedish beauties the other day (age 32, 35 and newly divorced 40). First volleying technique. The lesson in the technique was how to move the racquet into position to go to the ball with the sternum. Introduction to forehand and backhand volleys was very successful. Next...the forehand. Hitting balls out of the air with a full swing. The swinging volley. While I advocate never using the swinging volley in a match or play...I do use it to train the swing. Next week the backhand and they will be playing tennis by the end of the second half of the lesson. There's a fourth lady too...she wasn't there for the first lesson.

The forty year old told me that someone told here that it wasn't possible to learn how to play tennis at forty. My answer to that was she was holding the trump card...she had me as her teacher.

As the student progresses the implement comes more and more into play and discussion. Usually about the time that tactics come into the lessons the racquet is more and more part of the discussion. But the fundamental that the body is conduit to swinging the racquet remains the same. This never will change.

Once upon a time I was having some difficulty with bunker shots and this fellow...just an average fellow offered the following advice to me. "Keep your chest on the ball". I went out that weekend and played the best tournament that I ever played...in golf that is. That was the single swing thought that I kept repeating to myself over every single shot around the golf course. I will never forget on hole number fifteen...I hit my approach iron into a bunker that was some eight feet or so below the green. The ball was plugged. I blasted out a meter from the hole and sank the putt for par. My playing partners were astounded. Perhaps it was pure luck...but I will never forget telling myself..."keep your chest on the ball".

Golfers have been on to this forever. I teach golf too...over here in Sweden. Tennis is nothing but...golf on the run (with basketball movement).

Well, when I lived in Crimea I taught footwork to a few of the kids who were on the local pro basketball team. They saw me working in tennis, and in the gym, so many of them just started joining in to do the stuff my daughter did as they found it interesting. The coach always wanted a split step on a catch and shoot as that was a fundamental of old school Russian basketball. The game, pace and ability of players has changed - and it's not a good idea to instill that type of movement as you're working with a naturally engaged group anyways who won't do it when the ball is dropped and they revert to what they did on the playground (which, is the testing battle grounding, and where things get figured out in that sport the hard way). I take it Steve was a good player, and he notes, it was not necessary. It will eventually carry over into tennis. don_budge is right about many, many things.

[hockeyscout]

Right now I take a 26' stick, and my two daughters will practice, hit, serve and play tennis with it. It's hard. And, that's the point. Then they will play with a racket with no strings in it. Just a piece of rubber the sweet spot, and they go out, and try to focus on really understanding how to position themselves before contact. Get your hips to the ball, and stroke the ball perfectly so it catches that rubber (it makes a noise, so they know). As a coach, I am training myself to understand what is going to happen to that ball before she hits it, and not focus on the result of what is occurring with the new age strings and advanced racket technology. It's deceptive and not accurate (a player's outcomes when hitting with this new equipment), and being a bit older of a coach now I understand the importance of clean work).

Tennis is a game of centimeters, and it needs to be respected.

That's what don_budge gets - not much margin for error with a golf club or hockey stick, and these new rackets you can be very wild.

Budge once watched a video of my daughter and said she was wild. He was right, at the time, compared to now. Everyone else like Geoff Williams, Czech coach Petr (played on the Czech Davis Cup team) and countless guys on the tour told me she hit with the power of a Junior. I already knew what I developed within our system, so, it was what it was.

But, I reflected on Budge's comments.

I have really reflected deeply on the effects of space age equipment could have on an athlete's development.

So, I really adapted what I did on all levels (and this has affected my thoughts on developing 15, 20 and 25 year olds).

If you think about it, the 2006 age group is the group of kids learning to play the game with space age tennis rackets. It became a cause of concern for me, that the results I was seeing were not a truly accurate barometer of ability. We're all being fooled and conned as coaches by the speed and results we see with these new strings and rackets.

90 percent of what I do is with a stick or a racket with no strings, and that takes a lot of mental focus from all parties. But, the 10% we do end up doing with a racket is real quality focused work, as opposed to the wild work we used to do two years ago.

As a coach you should see and know what is going to happen before an athlete hits a ball. I always see coaches looking to see what happened with the shot after it was hit when they do drills, and for me, I am trying to train myself to know what will happen even before they hit the ball. I had a top Junior on the court with me recently, and he was a bit freaked out that I knew everything he was going to do before it happened. But, that comes from a lot of focused concentration. Right now he is getting his ass kicked on the challenger tour, because, you guessed it, the pro's can figure out what he is doing just like I did. In these early years with my two daughters we work a lot of disgusing what you are doing, and with these new rackets that's been lost. Its just flailing away to someone gets into what I call a lucky position once every three balls in Juniors, creams it, and wonders what in the hell went right there! We all see that process work out every day, don't we! A few figure it out, and many don't.

At this stage of her development I want her pounding the ball hard, flat and with great penetration, so, you only have so many quality reps in you on a young arm (later on she will need spin, but, she can add that on for margin off error, and to change pace and angles on people, she will sort that out on her own later I think).

Once you hit a certain number of balls with an athlete they don't get better, they just get dumber, so I am mindful of ball counts now like MLB pitching coaches. Small muscle, and real definite work is where it is at now.

Anyways with the stick, racket with no strings and third racket with strings, I am pretty confident we get in the right reps that are of exacting standards.

All the things I do really have been as result of circumstance, for instance in Ukraine we can play as long as we want on the courts (no one rushes us, and we can have a lot of artistic freedom to try new things), and, I've got a ten-year-old who is 5'10 (so, I have had to be real diligent about that arm, and dealing with a kid in a woman's body).

I also had one other fortunate set of circumstance, I have an MMA fighter from Africa to train. Every time he comes back from a fight he has a concussion. His neurology and skillsets are fried. I have to start with him from ground zero. Literally. climbing trees and hopscotch, and all the games he played as a kid to bring him back to life. His mama literally outlined what he did as a child, and it all needs to be built back up. And, it's the same for kids, 1' of growth changes everything, and you have to start reintegrating everything you did from the age of 4 years old. It's kind of interesting - the skillsets an athlete loses on a concussion are similar to what a ten-year-old kid loses when they grow 1 or 2 inches. Who would have figured. They are even a bit off emotionally when growing. That's why I place zero value in results when these kids are so young. Science does not know what is going on with them (let alone coaches and scouts), and the effect of growing and dealing with a new body every day is a bigger toll than we think. Lots of athletes can fool us early in the process, and I am sure we have all been burned and wrong more times than we will admit.

Now, all this training is generally fine and dandy. But, you don't know what they really compete like until much later in the process when they are past that puberty stage, and in some cases in the pro ranks competing against a lot of talented individuals.

My fighter lost 3-4 fights before he turned it around at 23, and won the heavy weight championship of Russia if you can believe it. The turning point was him being out one night at 4 am, getting into a drunken car crash with one of his African buddies and calling me come help him with the police (I didn't). I could have just shown up, and solved the issue like so many coaches do in this country. I said screw it. The next day we had a fight - right in the middle of the tennis court, and he wasn't pleased I did not assist him. It got to the point where we were going to brawl, until I pointed out to him in all ways in this country I would win (he has great fists, and I like to hunt bears if you get my meaning). I suggested to him he go back to Africa, as he's a lost cause. I knew he wasn't a lost cause, and it was part of the process. The guys at the courts thought I was 100 percent serious and thought I should overlook the transgressions. But, it was the time and place to be harsh. The kid calls him mom complaining about how badly I treated him, and mom responds, "I like this guy as a coach, and a man. Good for him. You little shit, you'd better not come back home to mama with nothing. Click (end of conversation)." African mama's are tough, and she raised him well. Anyways, after about a couple of months of not talking to me (or his mama) and dealing with his wife, he turned the corner, became a big time competitor and figured it out (which was great, because he had the skill and ability).

Circumstances determine these types of things (good and bad).

Now, it's an interesting tug of war to get the guy to be up at 5 am, eat his meals like he is supposed to and not play on his computer till late hours of the night.

I keep this guy around just so my daughter can see what can, and will go wrong in the athletic process. If he makes it or breaks it, it's a good scenario for her in all ways. Practices with this guy are interesting - some poor guy always ends up with a bloody nose, so it's good for her to see how mean this guy is. A local prison sends us sparring partners, and it's interesting to see their condition on return.

Business, and pro sports are a tough gig. Lots can go wrong, and when it does few can press forward and work themselves out of the hole. Life is like a bucket of crabs sometimes, people are trying to bring you down into that hole, and you've got to have the ability to get into a scenario where everyone is trying to help you (and, you are trying to help your peers as well) out of that bucket to reach the top.

The 10 to 19-year-old stage, a lot can go wrong, and these kids really do have to sort out a lot of things if they want to win (and, a lot of people put in the time, but, many aren't winning).

In short, you gotta admire what Dennis, and his mama have done. I can only imagine what their road to the top has been like with her handling it all.

[hockeyscout]

[hockeyscout]

One Door Closes...then Another One Opens...

With Roger Federer's star waning...to catch another rising star is our only hope. Is it going to be Denis Shapovalov? This was my initial impression about Denis. Notice that I anticipated John's current September Interactive Forum. I wonder if his objective was Kyrgios?




The jury is of course still out. Denis is out on the Challenger's Tour trying to establish himself in the world of tennis professionals. Man...he looked good against Nick "The Jerk" Kyrgios. But Nick is not exactly the gold standard to measure by. He's been known to play it soft. I'm not certain his heart was in the match against the kid...Denis Shapovalov.

The tennis world certainly could use another fiesta left-handed tennis player playing with beautifully sculpted fundamentals. If it was his mother who was the architect behind this piece of work...lots of praise for the great job. I remember a another rather feisty American left-hander who more or less stayed at the very top of the game for some twenty years. Jimmy Connors.

We need a hero in our midst. Without Roger we are lacking that "Boy who would be King" personna. Roger never lost that boyish charm either. It's too much to ask of Denis of course...but let's hope all the same that he continues to develop and evolve his game into something that is ultimately a force in the tennis world.

DM me (or here), and tell me what you see as "next" for Dennis. What do you like, and what would you watch - observe closely for a month or two if you had to work with him specifically before altering if you were "working in his corner?" What concerns you about his game, and what needs to happen from a pure skill developmental point of view in the next four years?

[don_budge]

The Left-Handed Advantage...Denis Shapovalov and John McEnroe

DM me (or here), and tell me what you see as "next" for Dennis. What do you like, and what would you watch - observe closely for a month or two if you had to work with him specifically before altering if you were "working in his corner?" What concerns you about his game, and what needs to happen from a pure skill developmental point of view in the next four years?

You probably have a better eye than I do for assessing his physical condition. If I were given the opportunity to closely observe Denis Shapovalov for a month or two I would want to watch what he is doing in matches.

From this much observation point I would make an inventory of every single shot he possesses and evaluate it in terms of his tactical acumen.

On the forehand side I would like to see a stroke that produces a lot of spin and a stroke that can be hit flat as well. Secondary on the forehand I would even develop some underspin to the point that it can be used on approaching the net and hitting well disguised drop shots.

The left-handed backhand is a great place to start in the development of a tennis player. Denis already shows the ability to hit major league topspin but just as importantly as on the forehand side I would like to see him with the ability to flatten the ball out and particularly on the down the line shots. Of paramount importance for a left hander is the slice backhand. This is the shot that is the key to the left handed game. The ability to play smart, sound tactical defense with the slice is a priceless asset. But to also play subtle offense with the same shot is a bonus. The ability to maneuver the opponent subtley and slice him around has the effect of "death by a thousand cuts". The ability to alternately change the spin from slice to top is a weapon to have in the bag for any crafty lefty.

Service wise...I haven't really had a chance to look at his motion. The video in this thread is not playing on my computer. I may have to update my player. But first of all...at the age of seventeen it is time to perfect the motion. Time to iron out any perceptible wrinkle that may give him cause for concern when he is in a fifth set tie-break in a Slam event. He must be able to go for the lines and pick his points strategy wise. Here he must be educated like a baseball pitcher in moving the ball around the service court. He must pick up on his opponents strengths and weaknesses and learn how to develop his tactical game plan around his intuition. Developing a tactical scheme for both courts...the ad and the deuce...against both left handed, one handed and two handed players. It goes without saying that he needs to be able to take his opponent way off of the court on the ad side and pull him way across the court on the deuce side. Developing the flat serves out wide in the deuce and up the middle in the ad side.

Big time emphasis on the service game at this point. Denis is entering the man's game and this is where he can really capitalize on his left-handedness.

Perhaps above all I would work and develop his approach and net game. This is where the next may very well possibly be going in the men's game. For over a hundred years the net game has been more prevalent than it is now in modern tennis. Modern tennis is a bad joke in this regard. The skills of the modern player have eroded past recoverability. I would pound young Denis into the ground in this aspect of the game. Working him up and back from the net. Developing a great overhead smash to boot.

Everything that you can think of that takes advantage of his natural advantage of being left handed. Spin becomes more effective because it is coming from the "wrong" side which has the effect of causing just an instant hesitation in the opponent. Anything to get him off balance for a moment so that the fighter moves in for the knockout. The set up and the knockout.

Take a couple of pages out of the great John McEnroe's book of tactics against the great Bjorn Borg and you have a pretty good recipe on how to handle the typical modern type prototypical player...strong gripped forehand and two handed backhand. It was a beautiful thing to watch as McEnroe dissected the Swedes thunder game with a variety of tactics and spin.

These are a couple of thoughts without even seeing much of young Denis. I'm sure that if I did get to watch him close up in match play that I would have some real specific things in mind to work on over the course of a couple of years so that by the time he is nineteen or twenty he will be able to face any and all eventualities. All permutations and combinations.

Food for thought.

[hockeyscout]

I really wish I had taught my oldest daughter to be a left-hander three days a week and a right-hander three days a week. Major mistake. Until they are 13 I really think kids should be taught to play off both sides as it gives them a better understanding of the game, and experience. Interesting post on Dennis, thanks. My youngest daughter is a left-hander naturally (but, she is being taught to play right as well).

[don_budge]

I really wish I had taught my oldest daughter to be a left-hander three days a week and a right-hander three days a week. Major mistake. Until they are 13 I really think kids should be taught to play off both sides as it gives them a better understanding of the game, and experience. Interesting post on Dennis, thanks. My youngest daughter is a left-hander naturally (but, she is being taught to play right as well).

Thanks for the interesting question. I remember when you first posted about your daughter on the forum and we were writing on Skype that I was recommending that you start the girls playing two handed on both sides. That might make an interesting experiment with the young one. Then at a certain point she could drop either hand. At any rate...whatever it takes to get the player to get both sides of the body engaged in the swing. Being an advocate of full body swings.

[hockeyscout]

Thanks for the interesting question. I remember when you first posted about your daughter on the forum and we were writing on Skype that I was recommending that you start the girls playing two handed on both sides. That might make an interesting experiment with the young one. Then at a certain point she could drop either hand. At any rate...whatever I thought it takes to get the player to get both sides of the body engaged in the swing. Being an advocate of full body swings.

The older one is an okay player now, but, I think she would have been much more balanced if I built an ambidextrous player from day one.

By the way, at the time I was thinking you meant two hands like Seles.

[don_budge]

Monica Seles, Pancho Segura, Marion Bartoli, Fabrice Santoro...

The older one is an okay player now, but, I think she would have been much more balanced if I built an ambidextrous player from day one.

By the way, at the time I was thinking you meant two hands like Seles.

That is what I meant...two hand forehand and two hand backhand. Teaching total engagement of the body for swings on both sides. By attaching the normally non-hitting hand you learn to harness the potential of the opposite side of the body.

This is the reason for keeping that hand out in front of you on the forehand side...what do we call that here on the forum? But you keep that hand in front of you so that as you rotate the left side of the body (if you are right handed) is doing as much work as you can eek out of it.