Roscoe Tanner Serve

[hockeyscout]

Best motion ever? Most efficient? Thoughts?

watch

[gzhpcu]

Always liked his serve. His motion was so fast he sometimes hit the ball on the rise. So fast that the opponent has little time to get ready. Difficult to copy though. Saw him live in Wimbledon years ago close up on a back court. Impressive!

[hockeyscout]

Why do feel it is so tough to pull off?

[klacr]

Great service motion? Sure. No doubt it was effective for him. Just an example of a myriad of ways to hit the ball. He had all the technical checkpoints that any great server executes so he made it work. But that motion isn't for everyone. Tough for many to have the quick acceleration and racquet head speed to pull it off. If it was "the best way" then I'm sure many more top players would do it.

I have a similar motion but it just happened naturally. I never intended to copy or duplicate Tanner's. I'd be careful copying anyone's service motion to a T. Instead, focus on the key fundamentals and the players own natural style can shine through.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

Serves seem all different to me. Never saw two players with totally identical serves.

[hockeyscout]

Great service motion? Sure. No doubt it was effective for him. Just an example of a myriad of ways to hit the ball. He had all the technical checkpoints that any great server executes so he made it work. But that motion isn't for everyone. Tough for many to have the quick acceleration and racquet head speed to pull it off. If it was "the best way" then I'm sure many more top players would do it.

I have a similar motion but it just happened naturally. I never intended to copy or duplicate Tanner's. I'd be careful copying anyone's service motion to a T. Instead, focus on the key fundamentals and the players own natural style can shine through.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Takes a lot of work and time to properly develop the functionality in an athlete to be able to execute that type of a serve.

Great service motions start with good base athletic setups.

And, I have to politely disagree with you on your motion.

You're swimming and QB - pitcher - swimmer rotator cuff set you up for that motion.

It's easy when things are pre-set for you and sequentially set up.

Motions become to learn when you have no hitches or weak links.

It was comfortable for you because of your certain unique traits.

Swim coaches generally have a good idea on how to set up shoulders to function the correct way, and yours fire well on the service motion specifically because of the nice pre-set up work done through swimming.

Now I would not recommend tennis players go work with swim coaches as the application of swimming to another sport is quite tricky ... but, when you have been at it for a while you figure these things out.

NFL trainers like Marv Marinovich took a lot of things from swim coaches like Doc Counsilman, and applied it to football players.

And, it's tremendously effective.

USA swimming is a world power for a good reason.

So, is the NFL who is stealing everything they can from more advanced swim and track coaches. The NFL guys are real smart - especially the ones like Marinovich who know how to intertwine swimming to tennis.

Dynamic integration - it works wonders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN8sai6jd_o

[klacr]

Takes a lot of work and time to properly develop the functionality in an athlete to be able to execute that type of a serve.

Great service motions start with good base athletic setups.

And, I have to politely disagree with you on your motion.

You're swimming and QB - pitcher - swimmer rotator cuff set you up for that motion.

It's easy when things are pre-set for you and sequentially set up.

Motions become to learn when you have no hitches or weak links.

It was comfortable for you because of your certain unique traits.

Swim coaches generally have a good idea on how to set up shoulders to function the correct way, and yours fire well on the service motion specifically because of the nice pre-set up work done through swimming.

Now I would not recommend tennis players go work with swim coaches as the application of swimming to another sport is quite tricky ... but, when you have been at it for a while you figure these things out.

NFL trainers like Marv Marinovich took a lot of things from swim coaches like Doc Counsilman, and applied it to football players.

And, it's tremendously effective.

USA swimming is a world power for a good reason.

So, is the NFL who is stealing everything they can from more advanced swim and track coaches. The NFL guys are real smart - especially the ones like Marinovich who know how to intertwine swimming to tennis.

Dynamic integration - it works wonders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN8sai6jd_o

Perhaps. I never truly analyzed or thought about my service motion in-depth before. I just toss and hit it. If the result is effective, I stick with it. I've stuck with mine.

I'm sure biomechanics and previous sports experience has big impact, but never got into the nuts and bolts of it, I just like to serve.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

Perhaps. I never truly analyzed or thought about my service motion in-depth before. I just toss and hit it. If the result is effective, I stick with it. I've stuck with mine.

I'm sure biomechanics and previous sports experience has big impact, but never got into the nuts and bolts of it, I just like to serve.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Your swim coaches did a superb job.

[klacr]

Visuals are always the best.
Not able to download higher quality quicktime mov. So have to settle for vimeo link

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

Kyle, as a swimmer what do you think of Marv Marinovich's dynamic integration?

That video is seven years old (and, much has changed in how coaches are training central nervous system activations now, but it's interesting).

Marv had some very interesting ideas that were ahead of their time, but, he clearly copied over a lot of stuff from swim coaches who have always been ahead of the curve.

[klacr]

Kyle, as a swimmer what do you think of Marv Marinovich's dynamic integration?

That video is seven years old (and, much has changed in how coaches are training central nervous system activations now, but it's interesting).

Marv had some very interesting ideas that were ahead of their time, but, he clearly copied over a lot of stuff from swim coaches who have always been ahead of the curve.

Interesting video. Hard to dissect. Looks like two guys in a pool flipping and twitching. I'm sure it has a beneficial purpose, I never got into the hi-tech cutting edge stuff. Just a strong above average ability to swing, kick, paddle and remain buoyant. While on dry land, I can hit a fuzzy yellow ball with conviction and purpose.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[klacr]

Your swim coaches did a superb job.

Thank you. Lucky mix of good coaches and genetics

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

Visuals are always the best.
Not able to download higher quality quicktime mov. So have to settle for vimeo link

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Your ball is heavy like a heavyweights, and Roscoe's is quick or fast like a light heavy weight

It's 215 - 235 vs 175 pounds.

I don't see correlation between your serves.

You got a stronger rotator, wrist and your overall shoulder- wrist mobility is rather freaking impressive for guy your age (I assume over 30). Your neck is solid - so many athletes undertrained in this area. 20 years ago you could tell a good athlete by the neck, and today, it's something trainers are scared to touch in this era of lawsuits. Its the big reason for the rise in concussions. Anyways, it would be interesting to see if you have a double jointed wrist or elbow.

I don't think Roscoe was double jointed (Sampras - Federer are by the way, it's great for tennis, but bad for MMA) - he has more dynamic flow, quick twitch, rib cage mobility and surprisingly more elongation (I thought you'd have him beat in that department as a swimmer, but, you are in your late 30's so things may have changed over the years as you have aged) compared to you.

Roscoe's whole setup was to get to the net quick, and his ability to move out of that serve into a flat out run is what really impresses me about him the most.

He hits, and he flows.

That's the area a player like Kye surely works on day in and day out with urgency. Lots of mass to move. It's tough to stay engaged and balanced. Minimalistic movements, a big key when you are massive. Getting to the net - so important if you are a big man with a long reach. Nothing is worse than a big man who can jab (volley).

The old guys sure knew how to approach a ball, and the net. They had to, their rackets were a joke and it disabled their hands. If the hips, positioning, concentric and eccentric movement we're not rock solid, forget it.

Look at the great strong finishes of Connor after he hit the ball, and how he was always in control of that racket head, and look at how players today just slap their rackets around after hitting a ball.

Watch the old pro's teaching lessons (the real old ones in there 60's) and see how strong they are on the racket, and watch the young ones always throwing it around out of control. Watch the nice follow-throughs of the old guys, and focus.
Becaus
Service motions are impossible to implement in young players if you do not have them hitting, and moving forward to the net.

Fun time posting here boys, and checking in, but I need to tune out now, get back to fishing, hunting, preparing for a MMA fight and early morning tennis.

Staying around the house lately with two kids who have chicken pox and ringworm.

I will check in next when Hilary is in prison, or Trump is the next president.

[johnyandell]

Terrible model!

[don_budge]

On the Importance of going Forwards...To the Net!!!

Terrible model!

Absolutely terrible model. Roscoe's serve was certainly almost an anomaly. Idiosyncratic. He himself landed in the slammer on at least one occasion.

Spot on comments about volleying, forwards movement and equipment ramifications in the post before by hockeyscout. I have been training everyone on volley skills the last two weeks. Specific technique. Cone drill...split step to cone one meter inside the service line...moving forwards for a forehand volley, then back behind the cone again, then forwards for a backhand volley. Maintaining control of that racquet head...short strokes on balls moving forwards. When volleying placement trumps speed of the ball. What is power? What is control?

Technique first...then to targets. Now backwards two or three meters for a volley like groundstroke off of the bounce, approach shot then advancing for the forehand then backhand volley. Targets...targets...targets. Aim...aim...aim. Technique...technique...technique.

It was a little bit surprising. All of this training to take the ball in the air and getting them to move forwards after an approach shot. I was watching them play some games that we play and I noticed that maybe they weren't going to the net any more frequently in most situations but they were really moving for the ball much quicker.

I have been harping on the importance of moving forwards and backwards forever...it was my favorite way of training. Good solid reasoning about the value of moving forwards and training everything around that mission. Even the service motion.