Interactive Stroke Analysis Roscoe Tanner's Serve

[10splayer]

Still think the low-around-the-apex toss has one great advantage for those with the ability to do it. All those horrible things that can go wrong with a serve like a drop elbow or a kink in the action are much less likely to happen with an arm action that has to be rapid because of the nature of the serve. There simply isn't time to for the arm to deviate and develop a kink or dropped elbow when the arm has to move so fast to meet the ball.

Understood. To me, though, the the underlying question is, why don't more players use this kind of delivery? That is the real litmus test. They tend to figure out the best approach. Often times in spite of our theories and speculation.

[johnyandell]

10s Player et al,

Yep, great point. No one since Kevin Curren (if he did) has hit the ball at the top after Roscoe, and few if any before. But the freedom point remains. Some people just love this delivery or at least the idea of it. Sort of like people in love with extreme western grips.

[gzhpcu]

Understood. To me, though, the the underlying question is, why don't more players use this kind of delivery? That is the real litmus test. They tend to figure out the best approach. Often times in spite of our theories and speculation.

Because IMHO, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Players have had success and hit fast serves with both the high toss and the minimal toss, and the associated characteristics. A Darwinian-type evolution here has shown a preference for the higher toss...

[uspta990770809]

Under what forces or influences

Because IMHO, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Players have had success and hit fast serves with both the high toss and the minimal toss, and the associated characteristics. A Darwinian-type evolution here has shown a preference for the higher toss...

Phil,
A "Darwinian-type" evolution is a function of the environment and forces acting on the evolving entity or species. In the last 30 years, there has been an overwhelming and, I think, inordinate emphasis on power coupled with a de-emphasis of consistency and accuracy. And in the case of the serve, that has meant a de-emphasis on the rhythm that produces a consistent toss and a higher percentage of first serves along with reduced double-faults.

As you know, it is more expensive to build a Swiss watch and a lot more difficult, but they run very accurately for a long time. Same with the serve, it takes a lot more to build a service motion with great rhythm and can be very difficult to get over the tighter tolerances as you are learning it, but once you get it, it works! In the extreme, we see the recreational player with the huge first serve...out of course, but followed by the tap second serve. Among better players, we see a lack of practice to develop a really good second serve. But among the top players, we see motions that were developed with one thing in mind: power. I contend you can get the power with the lower toss and also get a more reliable rhythm and toss, but it takes some work to get it right. I don't see many players wanting to do that and not even that many pros insisting upon it. So the kid gets started with a motion that he can generate more power with (initially) and never develops a more sophisticated, integrated rhythm. And we have world class players struggling to get 50% of their first serves in.

don

[gzhpcu]

Don,
Just look at the great Pancho Gonzalez, a gifted, natural player who never had a lesson in his life, and had a devastating serve. He did not have a minimal toss..

[uspta990770809]

Extrapolating

Don,
Just look at the great Pancho Gonzalez, a gifted, natural player who never had a lesson in his life, and had a devastating serve. He did not have a minimal toss..

We don't have modern video so we have to extrapolate a little but in the stroke archives, ServeFront1

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

we see Pancho letting the ball drop 4 or 5 right arrow keystrokes from its apex. Video is 30 frames per second, but if we assume this is 22fps film, and call it 1/4 second drop, the ball has dropped less than a foot (32 x 1/4 sec x 1/2 =average speed of descent x 1/4 sec = 1 foot). I think that's on the low end of the findings for Doug Eng.

Certainly not like Tanner, but that's minimal by today's standards.

don

[uspta990770809]

Actually, it's probably 30fps

We don't have modern video so we have to extrapolate a little but in the stroke archives, ServeFront1

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

we see Pancho letting the ball drop 4 or 5 right arrow keystrokes from its apex. Video is 30 frames per second, but if we assume this is 22fps film, and call it 1/4 second drop, the ball has dropped less than a foot (32 x 1/4 sec x 1/2 =average speed of descent x 1/4 sec = 1 foot). I think that's on the low end of the findings for Doug Eng.

Certainly not like Tanner, but that's minimal by today's standards.

don

While the original film may have been 22fps celluloid, I expect the film was transferred to some digital media and QuickTime is running 30 fps. That would cut the drop to no more than 6 to 8 inches.

don

[gzhpcu]

Here is a side view of Pancho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDJO_T0mwwM
Looks nothing like Roscoe Tanner's toss... Certainly not Steffi Graf's toss either..

[stotty]

Whatever toss. Beautiful serve Pancho had, better than Tanner's. Must have been a pain in the neck having to keep your foot on the ground back then. Just think how good it would have been in he could have launched upwards.

I think Pancho's serve is one of the all time beautiful shots in tennis.

[stickman]

Here's my take... take it as u will. The human mind is incredible... the higher the toss the more likley you are to pick up something about the serve . More over the head, more to the right, ect... However the lower the ball toss the less time the brain has to process the information. (correct?) Iv'e herd a 110 MPH serve will ace anyone every time with good placement. So if you cant read it, and its accurate you cant stop it... So how were the old timers with wooden rackets acing everybody? They werent serving 130 MPH... but because of ther quick motions they didn't have to... You didn't know were it was going... PERIOD...

[gzhpcu]

Found this:

[gzhpcu]

More....Tanner vs Dupre

[gzhpcu]

I just bought a dvd of Tanner vs Dupre 1979 semifinal in Wimbledon. I am still fascinated by his no frills serve...

[gzhpcu]

One more...

[stotty]

I like the split second timing of his serve and the way the motion identically repeats - it must, there is no time/margin for micro adjustments once the motion is underway.

When I try to mimic his action I find it incredibly arm-dependent. I prefer serves with deeper knee-bends where the load is spread more evenly along the kinetic chain...like Roger's. Roscoe must have had a strong, fast arm because I feel sure that's where a lot of his power came from, rather than driving up.

Roscoe's serve worked great for Roscoe, but don't try it at home.