High-Speed Clip of Federer's Forehand Volley

[lukman41985]

Most people know that Federer has a weakness with his forehand volley. Check out this clip: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...25410-0001.mov
Roger doesn't realy make a unit turn at all. Instead his right arm is moving independently of the body. Compare that to his backhand volley where there is a definite unit turn. It's interesting that he's missing the unit turn on the forehand volley considering how well he executes the unit turn on his forehand. What do you guys think?

[mntlblok]

High volley?

Do you know if he always does that? I note that that volley is of a head high ball where the racket head stays pretty much the same height off the ground on the follow through as it is at the hit. The backhand volley is of a lower ball with a different type of follow through.

He also looks pretty casual there as if he's just warming up. But, I did notice at a recent pro tournament that those guys seem to be so regimented in their techniques, that I would expect to see him use his usual technique even in such a casual situation.

Kevin Bryant
Savannah

[lukman41985]

Well, if you look in the Stroke Archive, you can check out other forehand volley clips and he still looks like he's missing the unit turn in most/all of them. Check them out and tell me what you think.

[mntlblok]

Federer vs. Sampras FH volley

Checked them out, but then had to go check out all of Sampras's forehand volleys for comparison. Rather inspirational. I'd never looked closely to see how much shoulder turn *anyone* does on forehand volleys. I know that I typically holler at myself to "turn" most every time I miss one. :-)

I guess I'm surprised to see how little Sampras typically turned his shoulders for the shot, too. Definitely more than Federer, though. You reckon Fed is aware of that?

I found it interesting to see how much Sampras relies on his wrist and hand to determine the direction of the volley. I also noted that I could *never* tell which way he was going to go. Interestingly, outside of drop volleys, he sure sent a very high percentage of them down the line.

Kevin

[CrazyLefty]

Shoulder turn on the volley

What is the biomechanical principles underlying the unit turn on the volley? For most other shots the shoulder turn is a critical component for producing racquet head velocity. The volley doesn't require a high raquet head velocity, so I am a bit confused about the proper mechanics.

Any thoughts?

CL

[lukman41985]

Federer vs. Others

Check out the unit turns in these FH volley clips:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/timhenman/th_volley_overhead/th_forehand_Volley/th_forehand_Volley.html?THFHVWarmUPFront.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_volleys_overheads/ps_fh_volley/ps_fh_volley.html?PSFHVWarmUpFront2.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/taylor_dent/td_volleys_and_overheads/td_forehand_volley/td_forehand_volley.html?TDFHVFront1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/patrafter/pr_volleys_oh/pr_fh_volley/pr_fh_volley.html?PRFHVCourtLevelFront1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_woman/martinanavratilova/nav_net/nav_volleys_and_overhead/nav_volleys_and_overhead.html?MartinaFHVFront1.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_volleys_overheads/mac_fhv/mac_fhv.html?MacFHVCourtLevelFront2.mov

Their preparation just looks different than Federer's. I'm talking about a matter of degree. And given the fact that the rest of Roger's game is so fundamentally sound except for that forehand volley, I don't think you can really call this nit-picking.

[lukman41985]

Interestingly, outside of drop volleys, he sure sent a very high percentage of them down the line.

This article, by Allex Fox, should explain to you why: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...t_the_Net.html

[mntlblok]

Fox

Interestingly, that very article *did* come to mind as I was pondering Pete's volleys. I loved *all* of Dr. Fox's articles - especially the ones describing his big name opponents from the 60's. Great stuff.

Kevin B

[mntlblok]

Translational movement

What is the biomechanical principles underlying the unit turn on the volley? For most other shots the shoulder turn is a critical component for producing racquet head velocity. The volley doesn't require a high raquet head velocity, so I am a bit confused about the proper mechanics.

Any thoughts?

CL

I ain't the expert, but I do have thoughts, as I've pondered volley techniques often. :-)

It seems to me that an awful lot of what has to be done biomechanically in order to control a volley involves doing things that keeps one from having his racket face "close" - especially on the forehand volley, and especially on inside out or down the line forehand volleys.

The swing thought that *I* keep coming back to is to lead the little stroke with the butt of the racket. Assuming a continental grip, it's very difficult to lead with the butt of the racket on a down the line forehand volley unless the shoulders are turned somewhat. I think the same holds true for the backhand volley, but I think "leverage" comes into play more there. The arm muscles just don't seem to be designed for generating much "oomph" for getting a backhand volley to go down the line without some significant shoulder turn.

It looks to me like the good volleyers can get around some of the need to lead with the "butt", but that may just be some of my misunderstanding of what the goal is of proper forehand volley technique. I've often read that one wants the head of the racket above the hand for proper volley technique. I've taken that to mean that one also wants to have the racket head as *directly* above the hand as possible. Getting that "feel" seems to help my volley technique.

But, especially in the Henman clips, it looks like some of them are able to have the racket in a more horizontal "posture" - that is, the racket head is level with the player's hand, making it easier to keep from having the racket face "close" on the volley. In my experience, and, again, I ain't no expert, this technique seems to allow for a "flatter" volley with less underspin, but also seems to be much more difficult to control.

It's very interesting to see the odd motion of the racket face of many good volleyers *after* contact. The racket face goes to totally facing the sky after the hit. My sense is that this seems to be most evident on lower volleys. Taylor Dent comes to mind. My assumption is that this move is simply the result of whatever they have done on the way to the hit to keep the face of the racket open enough and square eough to the line of the shot (as their racket hand goes forward on the arc from the shoulder hinge) to get the ball over the net, deep enough into the court, and still on the intended direction of the shot.

That is, it would seem to be ideal to have the racket face move in, what I think the physicists call "translation" - something like movement in only one plane, with no "arc" involved. Anyway, my theory is that the types of "follow throughs" on all "slice" or underspin type shots are related to an effort to have the racket face move in as much of a "translational" manner as possible.

Sorry if this type of thing bores people to death, and especially sorry if it's just flat out wrong. :-)

Kevin B

[ccptennis]

fedex's fh volley technique

Do you know if he always does that? I note that that volley is of a head high ball where the racket head stays pretty much the same height off the ground on the follow through as it is at the hit. The backhand volley is of a lower ball with a different type of follow through.

He also looks pretty casual there as if he's just warming up. But, I did notice at a recent pro tournament that those guys seem to be so regimented in their techniques, that I would expect to see him use his usual technique even in such a casual situation.

Kevin Bryant
Savannah

i think kevin is right on here about the majority of fh volley strokes in the archive are of fedex warming up. in the high speed archive it is pretty clear that there is little flex in his knees and he is making very little attempt to recover after his shot. this could account for why fedex's fh volley is a quote unquote weakness. he's not practicing like he plays.
in the regular stroke archive its the same thing. in one of the clips it is very clear that it is warmup because you can hear the announcer introducing the players.
when you watch some clips of fedex hitting the approach into the fh volley in a match situation there is more of a shoulder turn and cross step but definitely still not to the degree of the henman clip that was linked to above. wow is his technique spot on.
i'm going to pay some close attention to fedex's fh volley in matches to see if his technique is as loose as in the archive footage. i cant imagine that it could be. very interesting thread in regards to the fh volley being mechanically the least complex shot in tennis and someone like fedex not executing it perfectly is strange, even in practice. i look forward to checking back and seeing what everyone thinks.

take care, phil

[ccptennis]

fedex's fh volley technique

Do you know if he always does that? I note that that volley is of a head high ball where the racket head stays pretty much the same height off the ground on the follow through as it is at the hit. The backhand volley is of a lower ball with a different type of follow through.

He also looks pretty casual there as if he's just warming up. But, I did notice at a recent pro tournament that those guys seem to be so regimented in their techniques, that I would expect to see him use his usual technique even in such a casual situation.

Kevin Bryant
Savannah

i think kevin is right on here about the majority of fh volley strokes in the archive are of fedex warming up. in the high speed archive it is pretty clear that there is little flex in his knees and he is making very little attempt to recover after his shot. this could account for why fedex's fh volley is a quote unquote weakness. he's not practicing like he plays.
in the regular stroke archive its the same thing. in one of the clips it is very clear that it is warmup because you can hear the announcer introducing the players.
when you watch some clips of fedex hitting the approach into the fh volley in a match situation there is more of a shoulder turn and cross step but definitely still not to the degree of the henman clip that was linked to above. wow is his technique spot on.
i'm going to pay some close attention to fedex's fh volley in matches to see if his technique is as loose as in the archive footage. i cant imagine that it could be. very interesting thread in regards to the fh volley being mechanically the least complex shot in tennis and someone like fedex not executing it perfectly is strange, even in practice. i look forward to checking back and seeing what everyone thinks.

take care, phil

[ccptennis]

fedex delivery!

fed made short work of haas and his fhv looked super solid. i cant really see it as a weakness. what about the backhand jump return down the line by haas (abbv. bhjrdlbh) that shot looks very solid. anyone read anything about that? going to check for footage in the archive. sorry for the double post earlier - phil

[leis]

Leveraged Volley

It seems to me that an awful lot of what has to be done biomechanically in order to control a volley involves doing things that keeps one from having his racket face "close" - especially on the forehand volley, and especially on inside out or down the line forehand volleys.

The swing thought that *I* keep coming back to is to lead the little stroke with the butt of the racket. Assuming a continental grip, it's very difficult to lead with the butt of the racket on a down the line forehand volley unless the shoulders are turned somewhat. I think the same holds true for the backhand volley, but I think "leverage" comes into play more there. The arm muscles just don't seem to be designed for generating much "oomph" for getting a backhand volley to go down the line without some significant shoulder turn.

It looks to me like the good volleyers can get around some of the need to lead with the "butt", but that may just be some of my misunderstanding of what the goal is of proper forehand volley technique. I've often read that one wants the head of the racket above the hand for proper volley technique. I've taken that to mean that one also wants to have the racket head as *directly* above the hand as possible. Getting that "feel" seems to help my volley technique.

But, especially in the Henman clips, it looks like some of them are able to have the racket in a more horizontal "posture" - that is, the racket head is level with the player's hand, making it easier to keep from having the racket face "close" on the volley. In my experience, and, again, I ain't no expert, this technique seems to allow for a "flatter" volley with less underspin, but also seems to be much more difficult to control.

It's very interesting to see the odd motion of the racket face of many good volleyers *after* contact. The racket face goes to totally facing the sky after the hit. My sense is that this seems to be most evident on lower volleys. Taylor Dent comes to mind. My assumption is that this move is simply the result of whatever they have done on the way to the hit to keep the face of the racket open enough and square eough to the line of the shot (as their racket hand goes forward on the arc from the shoulder hinge) to get the ball over the net, deep enough into the court, and still on the intended direction of the shot.

That is, it would seem to be ideal to have the racket face move in, what I think the physicists call "translation" - something like movement in only one plane, with no "arc" involved. Anyway, my theory is that the types of "follow throughs" on all "slice" or underspin type shots are related to an effort to have the racket face move in as much of a "translational" manner as possible.

Sorry if this type of thing bores people to death, and especially sorry if it's just flat out wrong. :-)

Kevin B[/QUOTE]


Conceptulalize the "leverage volley" as a karate punch. Imagine that you are trying to break a wooden board with your knuckes (or racket butt) on a backhand volley. The board is in 6 inches in front of your hand and the racket head is relatively straight above to contact the ball. The feeling is mostly triceps contraction, not a pectoralis contraction. This type of volley motion allows a small unit turn for preparation and very little follow through. Knowing that you can punch out a strong volley with a six inch stroke allows one to wait longer before commiting the feet. Many pros can delay their feet commitment until the ball almost reaches the opposing service line because of a short leveraged stroke.

[mntlblok]

Had a chance to hit with a nice player at a tournament over the weekend who was on his way to the National 55's tournament next weekend in Atlanta. His volley tip to me (which immediately helped) seems to go along nicely with what you've posted. He had me keep my elbow tight in against my body before the stroke. This would seem to allow more use of the arm muscles and less of the trunk. It would also seem to involve less "arc" to deal with and to make it easier to do the short punch in the direction of the target. Thanks.

BTW, Wayne was the first player that I've met at a tournament who was also a member of tennisplayer.net.

Kevin B

Conceptulalize the "leverage volley" as a karate punch. Imagine that you are trying to break a wooden board with your knuckes (or racket butt) on a backhand volley. The board is in 6 inches in front of your hand and the racket head is relatively straight above to contact the ball. The feeling is mostly triceps contraction, not a pectoralis contraction. This type of volley motion allows a small unit turn for preparation and very little follow through. Knowing that you can punch out a strong volley with a six inch stroke allows one to wait longer before commiting the feet. Many pros can delay their feet commitment until the ball almost reaches the opposing service line because of a short leveraged stroke.

[nalbandian]

problem

Well, if you look in the Stroke Archive, you can check out other forehand volley clips and he still looks like he's missing the unit turn in most/all of them. Check them out and tell me what you think.

hi man i have problem running this stroke archive the quich time player shows a ?mark on it what should i do