Racket drop on the serve

[EricMatuszewski]

Phil,

I just looked at this thread for the first time.


What you've done with your serve is fantastic!

I see a clear imprpvement in external rotation and you're staying more closed which I like to look for because it helps increase topspin.

I know what it takes to change a habit, it's a level of perseverence that few people have.

You've obviously got a great attitude about this. I wish all of my students could see this, in fact I think I'll show them.

It's amazing what you can do (what you've done) when you have good information and a never give up attitude.

You're a real inspiration to all players who want to improve.

Thanks for sharing your evolution with the rest of us.

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Eric. Each of us has different biomechanical limitations, but still I believe that we can continually try to improve and make the best with what we have. Persistence pays off.

Just as we never stop learning in life, we should never stop improving. That is what I like about this site: great information provided by John and his team and motivated members.

One of my hobbies is theoretical physics, especially the latest advances in string theory, which tries to combine Einstein's General Relativity with the standard model of Quantum Mechanics. Would you believe it, but I find analysis of tennis strokes equally fascinating (and, of course more tangible... ).

P.S. thanks to you, am also deliberately cartwheeling more....

[maverick1]

Fully agree with you, Phil.

You are an inspiration. I too am working on improving my serve, practically reinventing it from scratch based on tips I have picked from John and elsewhere. I have my "biomechanical limitations" as you put it. I have to ration my Tennis to about 3 times a week max. My shoulder gets sore from serving, and I think I must have the over-abduction problem that is being talked about here. Frankly, I was quite surprised that 90 degrees is the correct abduction angle. I had assumed the typical angle was much higher. I have to see myself on video now. I will post my before & after video if I have a noticeable improvement. I had one really good practice session, but then couldn't reproduce that the next time I was hitting with a friend.

Regarding your other hobby, this is an "It is a small world" moment for me. Physics is my hobby as well, although I haven't reached a stage where I can understand modern physics. I still get confused by mechanics, embarassing given the amount of formal education I have had in that subject.
This past summer, I had the fortune of playing on the same USTA team as a string theorist regarded the world's greatest physicist(he is mentioned a lot in "The Elegant Universe") as well as one of the top mathematicians(he has a Fields medal).
Further, I was reading EricM's profile at TW earlier today, and I noticed he coaches at the same club where we played our USTA matches!

[gzhpcu]

Just remember it normally takes time to "reprogram" and create muscle memory. In changing your angle, I think the image of cartwheeling and leaning to the left could help. Good luck!

Wow, you were lucky to have played with a string physicist! Just goes to prove that physics and tennis are a good combination. Coincidence indeed that you read Brian Greene's book. His latest "The Fabric of the Cosmos" is also very good. He is very readable.

[EricMatuszewski]

Guys,

I think tennis attracts physicists or people with more scientific minds.


Maverick,

I look forward to meeting you if you ever have the time, stop by the club.
Sat 3:30-5 in the (barn) I have a class of the top 12 and unders in the state, it's a fun thing to watch if you've got the time.

Phil,

I just received "Fundamentals of Tennis" Plagenhoff. I think this is my new favorite tennis book even though it was published in 1970. It's really sad that it isn't in print anymore. It's just so good!

It's just beautifull, how thorough Plagenhoff was in breaking the strokes down and trying to quantify everything. I feel alot less nerdy after seeing what he did.

He even alluded to the impingement problem and the "danger line" I spoke of on page 79...
" A straight line is maintained from the elbow thru both shoulders to keep the shoulder joint in a favorable position of strength during the swing"

His drawings (of frames taken from actual film of top players) also show the cartwheeling (I'm still looking for some direct mention by him of this).

Thanks again for the great book recommendation.
Eric

[johnyandell]

That guy is a pioneer and truly I wish I had met him and maybe even been able to recruit him to Tennisplayer. Who knows what work he could have done with today's digital cameras.

Phil you are in the know regarding tennis books that's for sure. As for your hobby, I only wish I could aspire to understand the first thing about string theory. Every once in a while I try one of the popular physics/comology books but I am always stumped by page 2.

[maverick1]

Phil,
What is this about "cartwheeling"? I feel like there is article on the site or a post in the forum that I have missed.

Eric, I have sent you a personal message.

[gzhpcu]

Look at Bruce Eliott's "The Power Serve", Part 1, page 2 in the Biomechanics section.

He talks about the three ways the shoulders rotate:

I can rotate forward. I can twist backwards, then forwards. And I can have the back shoulder rotate over the top of the front shoulder, as in a cartwheel.

adding:

But the key to a good service action is that you rotate shoulder over shoulder

.

[EricMatuszewski]

Just finished going over "Fundamentals" a few more times.

Nothing suggests that Plagenhoef was noticing cartwheeling.

I think my favorite book is probably still "Tennis course I" but Plagenhoef would take my vote for most groundbreaking for it's time.

Plagenhoef's evidence that grip tightness (more being better) was a major factor in ball speed is facinating, however It conflicts with my experience. still really a good argument by him though.

Again, this book is really great though and definitelly worth looking for. My favorite is the discussion of Laver's open stance topspin forehand.

[gzhpcu]

I just ordered "Biomechanical Principles of Tennis Technique: Using Science to Improve Your Strokes" by Duane V. Knudson. Should arrive this week. He has a PhD in biomechanics.

[EricMatuszewski]

I just ordered "Biomechanical Principles of Tennis Technique: Using Science to Improve Your Strokes" by Duane V. Knudson. Should arrive this week. He has a PhD in biomechanics.

I corresponded with him a couple years ago when I was trying to get some feedback on the cartwheeling to prevent impingement idea. I didn't think he got it from just words alone, perhaps this forum will help him see what I was trying to say.

I just now ordered his book as well, I figure I owe him for him at least trying to figure out what I was saying, perhaps he mentions our conversations in the book.

Bonita Marks did acknowledge me in her book "Taking your Tennis on tour" I did an interview with her when I was trying playing futures tournaments in the US.

That is a great book (not just because I'm in it). It's the first book that scientifically addresses what it's like to try to work your way into pro tennis.

Financing your attack on the tour, travel, and some more racy things like handling groupies.

Phil, I think we're making this into somewhat of a book club.

Eric.

[gzhpcu]

Just got the book today Eric. A quick first comment in regards to cartwheeling: his figure 3.7, shows a server with his shoulders practically parallel to the ground and his shoulder up 90 degrees at impact! Not good! Even if only a drawing, it gives a wrong visual message.

He seems to have missed how Sampras cartwheels on page 70.

Otherwise at first glance, the book seems interesting....

That is why, an interactive site like this is so much better. Discussion can clarify points, and John selects good contributors. Maybe John should let you write an article on this point in the biomechanics section....

[johnyandell]

Well, we've chatted about it...

[EricMatuszewski]

Phil,

That picture your describing blows my mind. I'm shocked that Duane hasn't figured this out yet.

Check again and make sure there isn't any reference that this picture is of what not to do.

Duane is a really well respected expert in the field of Biomechanics as related to tennis.

Again, I'm just shocked.

[gzhpcu]

Check it out when you get the book Eric. It is not a "don't do this" warning picture. Some drawings of the serve are OK, but his particular one is faulty. Funny, because on page 59, towards the top, he quotes a study, which concludes saying "key conclusions were that most of the angular momentum at impact was transferred to the racquet arm primarily from the trunk's somersaulting (not twisting) angular momentum." This somersaulting for me, is cartwheeling....

P.S. picture 3.9 also shows a dangerous angle on the serve...