Clarification on Federer Forehand Grip Structure

[lukman41985]

John,

First of all, let me thank you for this month's article. It's great. I especially love the footage you have of Guillermo Coria. He's a really smooth player.

The reason I'm messaging you is because I'm wondering if you could clarify what your position is on Federer's forehand grip. In your article on the Federer forehand you stated:

Andre has his heel pad on the same bevel--bevel 3--as Pete and Roger, but he shifts his index knuckle downward one full bevel, so that it is centered on bevel 4. Federer shifts his knuckle toward bevel 4 but his knuckle isn't actually on the bevel like Agassi. Roger's index knuckle appears to be just at the top edge of bevel 4. It's definitely not resting on the bevel itself, but it's definitely shifted down from the Sampras position.The bottom line is that this downward shift seems to puts his grip halfway between Pete to Andre, or probably a little less.

However, on the Talk Tennis Message Boards, you posted this:

Slight clarification on my view on Roger's FH grip. What I see is basically one grip--if there are slight shifts I don't see them--they might exist but would be very subtle. Essentially he has his heel pad in line with bevel 3 and index knuckle on the edge between 2 and 3. That makes him between Pete and Agassi but maybe a little closer to Pete.

Wouldn't this make his grip identical to Pete's? If not, then was Pete's index knuckle on bevel 2? Another issue that's confusing me is how the index knuckle can be on a lower bevel number than the heel pad. It's confusing because Agassi's heel pad is on 3 (lower number) and his index knuckle is on 4 (higher number). See what I'm saying? The difference is interesting. It also reminds me of one of shooter's posts:

i was able to hit around today and i was keeping note of where my heel pad was. it was aligned with the 4th panel, but my base knuckle was in between 3 & 4. it seems like the trend is to have the heel pad and knuckle in line (eastern) or have the knuckle be moved down lower than the heel (agassi, fed ferrero). i wonder if any other pro hits with something similar to what i'm doing? maybe a grip change will improve my forehand

I think the difference might be that Agassi uses what Jim McLennan calls a short grip whereas Federer and Sampras use a long grip. I posted about it on the forum. Here it is: http://www.tennisone.com/magazine/qu...dplacement.php
What'd you think of it?

Thanks for taking time to think/answer.

Sincerely,
Lukman

[lukman41985]

shooter,

Maybe you've read this. Does this make you feel any better about your grip?

I hope more people can chime in here because there seems to be plenty of ways to hold a grip, but the long versus short grip distinction seems to be a good dichotomy from which we can work from.

-Lukman

[johnyandell]

Sorry I meant on the edge between 3 and 4. Not really sure about the long short thing to be honest. I think that is probably a matter of preference.Go look at the Bevels in the Federer FH article. You'll see which is which. The index knuckle can be either above or below the heel pad.

[lukman41985]

John,

Thanks for the response and the clarification. I was amazed to think Federer held an even more conservative grip than what was previously known.

With regard to the long vs. short grip issue, I agree it's a matter of preference, but it'd be interesting if people learned both and could then decide from there. It's like discovering all the hitting arm combinations for a two-hander. Players shouldn't feel limited by how they hold the racquet. And that's why I brought up shooter's post, because he felt like his grip was somehow flawed, when that wasn't the case--just like you pointed out to him.

Thanks for the input about the positioning of the index knuckle and the heel pad and where they are with respect to each other. I think, and I hope to convince you, that long and short grips are what determine this relative positioning. Experiment for yourself and tell me what you see. I see that with a short grip, the index knuckle tends to be higher than the heel pad, if not even. So with a short grip, your heel pad could be on three while your index knuckle was on 4. With a long grip, the index knuckle tends to be higher than the heel pad, if not even. Let me know what you conclude.

This all is making me think of another issue: the Eastern grip. Let's take Eastern to mean that the index knuckle is on bevel 3. Try to hit forehands with an Eastern grip with a short grip. It feels like the face is open. Now I'm speaking from personal preference, but I wonder how many players feel the same way. What do you feel when you do it? I wonder how many people moved further Western with their grip, just because the Eastern grip felt uncomfortable with the short grip. I wonder if they would have felt more comfortable by keeping their index knuckle against bevel 3, but switching from a short grip to a long grip. The confusion over the whole issue makes me understand now, finally, why so many instructors/instruction resources ignored the positioning of the heel pad and just focused on the index knuckle. It makes things simplistic, but unfortunately ignores some important subtleties. Thanks for inspiring me to learn about the heel pad. You're a great teacher!

-Lukman

[shootermcmarc0]

It looks like on the returns, Roger holds a short grip since its between a forehand and a backhand and he has little time to react. You probably saw those super slower motion vids on the TW forums. If you look at at the shots where his wrist is really laid back with a straight arm, his grip looks short than his normal groundstrokes. I think the OP of the slow motion thread mentioned that one of those shots was a 105 mph return.

I've actually changed my grip to something like Agassi's and Roger's, and I like it

[lukman41985]

shooter,
I wish I could have seen those videos but they did not play for me. Oh well. Is your new Andre/Roger-like FH grip a long-ish type grip or a short-ish type grip.

[shootermcmarc0]

shooter,
I wish I could have seen those videos but they did not play for me. Oh well. Is your new Andre/Roger-like FH grip a long-ish type grip or a short-ish type grip.

Longish type. to play those videos, i recommend downloading Media Player Classic or VLC player. They can play pretty much anything on the net

[johnyandell]

I think we need to be very careful about making linear deductions about anything in pro tennis. And in this case grips.

You can have the heel pad and the knuckle on any bevel with either grip, or inbetween. Pete is spread somewhat with the index knuckle, Federer not. But extreme grip guys like Nadal and Hewitt have their fingers very close. Gonzo spreads the index AND the second finger. I didn't go through and look at the them all, but as I said this is probably a minor factor. A change in the finger spread is not going to open your racket face--that is something else.

What's comfortable for the player is going to be the deal. Yes players keep the fingers closer on serve--or most do I believe. Beyond that I think it's pretty much a non-factor in the stroke--or way lower on the priority list than the bevels positions and the swing pattern.

[lukman41985]

It is a bit of a linear deduction, but I'm just pointing out a tendency. Thanks for your input as always!

[lukman41985]

John,
Thanks for bringing up Gonzo. Looks like his grip is pretty similar to Federer's. Do you see the same. Looks like that index knuckle is between 3 and 4, no?

[johnyandell]

Much more extreme!

[lukman41985]

Yikes! Need to get my eyes checked!

[lukman41985]

Great Pictures of Pete's Forehand Grip!

You can clearly see the position of the base knuckle in this one:


And the position of the heel pad in this one: