Forehand forearm supination question

[EricMatuszewski]

Also I don't think the wrist should be laid back/cocked for the same reason (inhibiting the rebound) on the flexor action.

I see some pro's will do this, but then release this "lay back" just before divebombing into the stretch. Other's dont do it at all.

I think the cocking is a wastefull movement (you have to get out of the cocking position before you can start the stretch sequence anyway) so why do the cocking to begin with. Many top players who "cock" the wrist don't seem to get the racket tip speed that the ones that start from a more relaxed state do.

There are alot of women, even top ones who do this cocking action and I think its a contributing reason why they can't hit the ball with much spin. (I believe the flexion component contributes in some way to the spin as well). Sharapova, Golovin, even Safina (her brother does it well though intrestingly?) fall into this category for me.

Kuznetsova Is a great example of a girl who does it the right way in my view. Ideal wrist and forearm action.. I'd recommend her or Henin as good models for any girls out there.


There are also alot of girls who start already supinated and I think this is another reason they can't make the spin. Pre-cocking( hyperextension) and Pre-supination I believe ruins the ability to hit heavy. If you just want to hit flat though you can do this stuff all you want but as I said it's hard to get it in hitting flat only.


Again this is all just my theories and I wish I could affort the technology to know more certainly, but I'm just a tennis coach. I guess the only proof I have is in my students rankings...but even that is subject to so much more than getting a good forehand it really doesn't mean much scientifically.

Praying for some funding from the USTA,
Eric

[gzhpcu]

I had thought the pre-stretching is something which occurs very quickly as the hips turn and the arm begins going forward to create an elastic band effect. It should not be a cocking action preparatory to hitting (associated with a slight pause...). The supination is not slow, but extremely rapid. It happens because the arm and hips are swinging forward - the racket lags elastically.

It is keeping the wrist and arm loose to allow this to occur, but still being aware of it by getting in the correct biomechanical position to allow it to happen...

[tennisplayer]

Eric, everything you've said resonates perfectly with my experience as well. Regarding intentional supination/pronation, I can't tell why that works against one, but I know it does from my own experience.

It seems that racquet head speed (and therefore power) is completely dependent on how "loose" one is. Stiffening of any muscle in the kinetic chain would result in slowing one down, it seems, by interfering with the release of the stored elastic energy in the muscle, or even worse, by actually obstructing other muscles from firing in unison. Intentional pronation or supination, or tightening of one's grip, would stiffen the involved muscles, and cause a slowing down of the motion, by this theory.

I used to think that muscles needed to stiffen at contact, even though they stay loose until then. But now I am of the opinion that there should be no intentional tightening of any muscle at any time, for generating maximum racquet head speed.

So how does one generate higher speeds, if this theory is true? I believe one has to execute the motion faster, still staying loose all through, and this will result in a higher racquet head speed.

The next question is how does one teach the right mechanics? I think if one uses the proper grip, stays relaxed (loose), and through coaching or visualization (a la Yandell's method) emulates the right action, the body will do the right thing. For example, for the forehand, if one uses a SW grip, points the racquet towards the back fence, hits low to high from inside to outside, the arm will naturally supinate and then pronate. At no time should the student need to think about explicit supination or pronation. And making this action faster will result in more power, and lead to more advanced play. Yes, this is a simplification purely for illustrative purposes.

Of course, I am also theorizing here, based on my experiences and readings... and all this is easier said than done. In practice, many, many hours of toil will be required to get a feel for these things, and everbody will probably do things a little differently.

[EricMatuszewski]

This is where the language difficulties come in. I thought you were saying something you weren't just because of language. This is why I don't like working online like this, I'd much rather work with people face to face!

It's impossible to get the communication on this stuff truly right thru words and clips there's just so much more I can do in person.

I think your saying your doing it the way I think it should be done though.

I looked at your clip of a forehand you had in another forum and the first forehand of the sequence of 2 of them looked good. We could be really picky about it indefinitely,but suffice it to say I think you've got the idea.

Eric

[gzhpcu]

Actually, the way Heath Waters explains the forehand stretch shortening cycle taking place makes sense to me.

[shootermcmarc0]

A guy I played against in doubles yesterday told me that he was reading a book that mentioned tightening the pinky, ring and middle finger on your forehand grip because it doesn't allow you to use your wrist. What do you guys think about that? Then he also mentioned that when you serve, only the thumb and index fingers should really be holding the racquet

[gzhpcu]

A guy I played against in doubles yesterday told me that he was reading a book that mentioned tightening the pinky, ring and middle finger on your forehand grip because it doesn't allow you to use your wrist. What do you guys think about that? Then he also mentioned that when you serve, only the thumb and index fingers should really be holding the racquet

That is more or less what I do as well. Some great servers even slip the pinky off the racket on the serve. Just try it.

[EricMatuszewski]

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[danquest]

easitennis

(excuse my bad english)
A few months ago I found out an excellent site that looks to sum up all you mention about the big forehand.
http://www.easitennis.com/
It's not very alive but all seems perfectly clear to me on the different "arm motions" involved to produce power.

I understand horizontal supination produce ball speed, where some vertical component produces ball spin.
I'm not sure we get right the idea with saying pre-stretch.

As a volleyball player, I know it's commonly admitted one jumps higher if a short "squat" happens before bursting towards the highest position. This can be verify by anyone. Stand in front of a wall, try different ways to reach the highest spot with your hand on the wall (take a pen for instance). The highest is usually reached with a short run + quick "squat". you may call this prestretching...It doesn't look like a stretch to me but involves a maximum muscular fiber like on the plyometric theory introducing a better result.

My secund point will be on stability. Based on scientific findings, a famous tv ad, displayed in France about car tyres, states power is nothing without control (stability). On the different slow motion in video archive, you see Fed like "dragging" is racket, pulling it by the butt towards the ball (what I called horizontal supination but look closely, no muscle "pulls"). Keeping your wrist in this position like he does until a bit more after he hits the ball is introducing a mechanical stability with little muscle control needed (just like a gymnast will turn his inside elbow towards his front to stay straight and effortless on the parallels).

Doing so, the ball speed comes from your arm rotation, the physical momentum reaching his best with almost straight arm rather like Fed/Nadal than Agassi/Roddick (but this gives less possibility to compensate an error of body position) but let him use a less close grip (for better height ball path control over lateral). All this can be felt playing with your racket protection and if air is not providing enough feeling, do the same in a swimming pool ;-) .

All the players mentionned drop the head of their racket proportionally lower from the hand as the spin they expect to produce. But this is true for low contact ball only and I've never seen it if the ball is hit low and taken on the rise.
My third point is, with the horizontal supination you get a stabilize wrist with little muscles involved all this when it's most needed, at contact point.
This allow you to tranmit power on a stable base, like Fed does.

Just imagine how will you push a fourniture...and when your arm is at its optimum position to push it, it should be identical as when you're at contact point.
Your hand usually stands flat on the fourniture (then not really using the fingers), fingers pointed to the (out)side. The angle of your hand and arm is the one that should be reached just before beginning the accelerating motion. It's effortless. The arm rotation will produce hand speed towards the ball and the natural correction of the racket surface to hit the ball. But then it's the follow through time.

The rotation of the arm is tranferred into translation (elbow moving forward) on about 1 inch or 2. This gives control/accurecy at the last critical moment. All that comes after is about discharching mechanically the energy not taken by the ball hit. Not that interesting from my point of view since it leads to various finishes depending on the type of hit (more or less spin, speed, body motion etc). To sum up, it's only a consequence.

What I've learnt from boxing is all the power comes from the hips (a forehand is more or less like a hook, with a low contact point) and thus involves more stability.

Therefore the kinetic chain starts with hips rotation, creating a torso in the chest, pulling on the arm, which produce a translation if necessary to get the elbow in front of the body (pulling the hand and the racket by the butt), rotate to bring the racket in the stroke position, translate the elbow on an inch through contact point and discharge the exceeding energy the best way the body can. The wrapping position is often the best since the hips had stopped rotating (if not, too bad ;-P ) and therefore absorbing the energy on the opposite side it created it.

I just like to get your advice, since it works too well for me (this great stroke makes my legs, eyes and team lazy :-/ ), but researches come from other fields than tennis. Is it transferrable, you think ?

[johnyandell]

I can't comment on that other site.

As for volleyball, personally I don't like cross sports analogies. I think we should stick to studying tennis--it's unique and complex enough on its own.

As for the biomechanical terms/arguement, it all seems logical. But that's not my field, so maybe Brian or Greg Ryan can say something there.

Where I am going with this is that personally I think the best way to proceed if you are interested in a better stroke is not microanalyze how things happen, but to try to match position in the strokes as noted in the articles in the Advanced Tennis section.

[wicky10s]

That is more or less what I do as well. Some great servers even slip the pinky off the racket on the serve. Just try it.

Isn't that how you get good wrist snap on the serve?

[johnyandell]

That's a joke right? Good wrist snap on the serve?

[wicky10s]

That's a joke right? Good wrist snap on the serve?

My apologies. I know what a stickler you are for correct observations and terminology .
I suppose what I should have said is that a loose grip and therefore loose wrist allows the arm to naturally pronate. Otherwise you might muscle the shot.
A teaching pro did tell me that the wrist snaps after the contact.
Should I fire this pro?

[johnyandell]

I wouldn't say that was stickling, but I'd agree about the loose part. I don't know about firing the pro, but you might want to show him some video.

[jeffreycounts]

I find that for good topspin, you need to be able to supinate the forearm at the bottom of the backswing (to achieve a higher degree of forehand forearm pronation and also to get a better go low/high trajectory on the stroke). To do this, you need a semi western at the least, otherwise the wrist gets blocked.

Gzhpcu,

I used to believe this as well. But then I started coaching a kid who had one of the biggest topspin forehands I had seen. Huge heavy hard topspin that really moved through the air. I was sure he had a semi-western grip. I didn't even bother checking. When I checked his grip, however, it was a conservative eastern grip. I couldn't believe it. And then I taped him and saw he had very little wrist layback, like Hewitt does on a lot of forehands. But he did turn the forearm and hand down.

So I was surprised to say the least! He was getting the heavy topspin from coming up the back of the ball and using the windshield wiper finish.

And then when John pointed out that Federer hits with an Eastern grip, it just confirmed it. Tennis has surprised me many times!

Jeff