The Landsdorp Two-Handed Backhand

[lukman41985]

In this article, Mr. Landsdorp shows the proper contact point on the two hander. However, the left arm is straight. Doesn't this violate the tenet of the hitting arm position: double bend with the wrist back and the elbow bent?

[johnyandell]

Man you take what I say too seriously! Actually it's funny you should mention it but I have completely revised my view on the two hander based on the high speed footage. I'll be doing a series on it, but basically the double bend I now believe is only one of four options. Straight/straight. Flexed/Flexed. Bent/Straight and Bent/Bent. You can see the differences in the Archive. My advice would be to film yourself and see what version you are.

[lukman41985]

Oh boy...

Wow. Very complex. But as always, the best thing to do is to focus on your own game. John, I'm heading back to school tommorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to get access to a digitial camcorder and tape myself. By the time that happens, I'm sure the site will be equipped to handle video uploads.

[lukman41985]

Distinction?

I'm interested to see what the difference between flexing and bending is.

[johnyandell]

A matter of degree but can't be explained simply here--planning a nice long series on the two-hander for later in the year.

[starvoise]

I'm interested to see what the difference between flexing and bending is.

If you bend the hands you have an angle between the forearm and upper arm sometimes close to 30 degrees; the issue is that both hands are working a bit against each other and the stroke is not as consistent...Flexed is better since it means the elbow joints are not being locked as they would be when hands are straight but the biceps is almost stretched all the way and that gives more stability to the stroke. Straight hands is great for control, but the backhand would lack acceleration since the but of the racket cannot be driven against the ball (the body gets on the way or if you try to keep the hands out too much, then you run out of hands just before the hit and end up pushing the ball).

Just my 2 cents.

Will be waitng for that long article John, I love reading your work..

Stan

[johnyandell]

Not sure "locking" is bad if you just mean extended and straight. Shouldn't be tense or rigid, but the elbow joint fully extended. That's the way all the great 1-handers hit--and it's the same for the two-handers like Agassi, Kafelnikov, and Safin (sometimes) when they hit the two. I think that again the style is determined not by some bio-mechanical advantage of one style--it probably has to do with the players and how comfortable they are using which hand in which way.

[courbie]

Notice the gender differences.

90% men with two handed backhands will have straight left are at contact.

90% women with two hands will have bent left arm at contact

there are no male players in the top twenty with the bent left arm

there are no females in the top twenty with a straight left arm

any disput on this?


James

[johnyandell]

The men--Ivaniesvic has the dominant left arm--they are probably others--but you're right in vast percentages!

[courbie]

Also, In all the kids that i've started on tennis and the ones that i've seen other pros teach which utilize a two handed backhand -----

99% Will develop the bent left arm on the two handed backhand if left to their own devices. Assuming right handed players. This is well over a thousand JUNIORS seen just in my local area.

1 in 20 teaching pros will teach boys to hit with a straight left arm or will not care or notice and leave them to find their own form.
(this is from sampling in my area) I'm probably being generous in the overall statistic

Breaks down to 5% of the boys being taught today are being shown the model that over 90% of male players use, and the largest majority of top 100 players are using.

So how does this break down and relate to the players that will make it to the professional ranks. Why should we teach this instead of Landsthorpe's model, which i agree is excellent for girls.

But then again, hopefully no one will figure this out and the kids i teach can beat the other kids in the area, which will bring me more business.

Oh well, come on John give me something to argue about!

Yours in Christ,
James

[johnyandell]

It's actually a well-founded insight! Sorry I can't start more of an argument, but there will be other chances...Not sure about the junior percentages because they go in and out of the hitting arm positions so fast, you'd want to video to really estimate that. BUT yeah--I am among the guilty who taught the bent left arm over the years--and even claimed that's how Agassi did it!

It's still a two-handed backhand though and I think that's what Lansdorp means. You want to use the back arm--keep in mind he trains players to bring the right arm out straight on the forehand!

If you look at his actual positions in his pictures, you'll see the straight arms! Even if that's not exactly what Petie is doing.

[courbie]

I understand Lansdorp's ideas but I believe he's backward in his thinking. I think the way he teaches is ok for adults and league play but not for the players we're trying to develop into pros. I definitley do not agree with most of his ideas where they would apply to juniors.

Maybe I see the grips differently but to me, looking at your videos, Ferrero has a semi-western grip not western. Stroke Archive, Ferrero, 2nd vid side view. Plus he won how many French opens, and made it to the Finals of the US Open, where he was completely exhausted and still did fairly well in the finals

He calls Jim Courier a player that's close to the top. Four Grand Slam titles is close to the top. How many has Lindsey Davenport won again?

He even says in his article it's ok for kids to move towards a wester grip but only after learning the classic style. Why would i teach something that i'm just going to change a year later?

Back to percentages - Landsdorp says to move to Spain and play on red clay if you want to slap your wrist at the ball.
99.99% of all professional players have the wrist laid back at contact.

He mentions Lindsey and Hingis, David and Goliath, Martina is half the size but still won lots of thier battles, Lindsey 14-10, but is also five years older than Martina

I do agree with him on some points, laying the wrist back, and starting kids off right, we just differ on the opinion of right.

I saw the same thing you did on the pics of Landsdorps backhand, the players he taught didn't listen to well. Pete's arms are bent on the backhand like you said, so is Sharapova's and Davenports.

And while the arms do extend, they never come completely straight the way the male players do.

Well looking at some of the new crop of juniors from last year's open, not much is changing. Extreme grips, straight left arms. Oh well maybe next year.

James
"hey, my dad can beat up your dad"
"yeah, well my coach can beat up your coach!"

[johnyandell]

Well, I think a big part of Robert's thing is his intensity and belief in the kids and incredible work ethic. You know you can't always hold the teacher accountable for the pupil. And vice versa--maybe sometimes the teacher takes too much credit...

Agree about Ferrero's grip. Probably if Robert looked at it closely he would to--haven't been able to get him to peruse the Stroke Archives yet...I can't promise when but I think you're going to see him say some rather surprising things about how his thinking has evolved in the next articles he does for us.

I still think one FH test is the ability to hit through the ball and believe that the more conservative grip structures are better for this--and for the 99% who won't make the pros. But also for the all court game. It seems very few players with western FH grips--Dent is an exception--ever get natural with the volley motions. My thought is that the closer the gs and volley motions the easier and more natural the volleys.

I think that Robert is a giant, a pioneer, and has been a lonely voice of truth in the wilderness, who is finally getting some recognition--and whether we agree or not just seeing what he believed and having it to react to is an asset. Everyone can take from it what they will...

[courbie]

Well, I think a big part of Robert's thing is his intensity and belief in the kids and incredible work ethic. You know you can't always hold the teacher accountable for the pupil. And vice versa--maybe sometimes the teacher takes too much credit...

I do love Robert's passion and work ethic, we need more of that drive in tennis coaches.


Agree about Ferrero's grip. Probably if Robert looked at it closely he would to--haven't been able to get him to peruse the Stroke Archives yet...I can't promise when but I think you're going to see him say some rather surprising things about how his thinking has evolved in the next articles he does for us.

That's really what i'm hoping for. You have to respect him for sticking to his guns and beliefs, I just hope he sees some of the evolution of the game.


I still think one FH test is the ability to hit through the ball and believe that the more conservative grip structures are better for this--and for the 99% who won't make the pros. But also for the all court game. It seems very few players with western FH grips--Dent is an exception--ever get natural with the volley motions. My thought is that the closer the gs and volley motions the easier and more natural the volleys.

My thinking about how it relates to volleys:
1. Dent is just naturally adept at the net game. I believe some players are just naturally better at the net than other. It just comes easier.
2. If it's not natural it helps if it is taught early, along with the forehand and backhand, teach it the right way early. Many pros will let their charges hold the racket the wrong way to hit volleys, which makes it so much more unatural feeling when they are asked to change it. I believe starting them with the continental grip is so important.
3. Practice the volley as much as the rest of the strokes. I've seen so many lessons that either hit volleys for five minutes or not at all. Spend time developing the stroke.
4. Show the player the advantages of coming in, when to come in and why. Then make them do it until it's as close to natural as possible.


I think that Robert is a giant, a pioneer, and has been a lonely voice of truth in the wilderness, who is finally getting some recognition--and whether we agree or not just seeing what he believed and having it to react to is an asset. Everyone can take from it what they will...

Robert has worked hard for what he believes. You have to admire that.

I just have a hard time with his models when I don't see it widely through my studies. To me it hearkens back to the way people taught before my time. Similar to your Myths articles. It's hard to believe that people still believe some of those things. I'm starting a new lesson on Tuesday, so I'm going to give his model a try, an eleven year old that reminds me of Sharapova.

What do you think about guiding games according to body types? Maybe for the Sharapova and Davenport body type, Robert's model is better, and use something different for say a Henin or a Sanchez-Vicario