Topspin

[tennismaverick]

Kevin said, "My guess is that their reason for using the wiper as their primary topspin stroke is that it would produce a flatter, faster, deeper and, therefore, more penetrating ball." So do you and Bill think that the wiper method produces less topspin than the swoosh stroke?

[johnyandell]

No I think it's the opposite. The primary contribution of the wiper is spin.

[Bungalow Bill]

Kevin said, "My guess is that their reason for using the wiper as their primary topspin stroke is that it would produce a flatter, faster, deeper and, therefore, more penetrating ball." So do you and Bill think that the wiper method produces less topspin than the swoosh stroke?

Actually Kevin you really need to get a specific file for us to look at so we can comment. There has to be one that you like we can talk about?

Also, the main reason as John said for the wiper motion is to INCREASE the spin rotation of the ball. The forward movement propels the ball forward. The combination of the two determines the heaviness of the ball.

Many players can really spin the ball through their motion. But let's get a clip up to refer to what we are talking about - I feel like I am driving blind.

[tennismaverick]

So according to the experts here, the wiper produces more spin than the swoosh stroke. That makes sense since the pros seem to use the wiper 95% of the time. I must not be hitting the wiper correctly because I produce more spin with the swoosh. So I looked at the high speed video clips on this site and noticed something that is in stark contrast to my swing. The pros lead the swing with the butt of their racquet and at the very last second (nanosecond) they whip the head of the racquet around and up and into the ball. Look at these two links (I don’t have quicktime pro to paste them):

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?RogerFedererForehand.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?JustineHeninHardenneForehand.mov

At its closest point, the butt of the racquet and the ball are within a foot of each other. If the ball is traveling at 60mph (typical pro groundstroke speed?), then the pros are waiting until the very last possible moment to whip the head of the racquet around to hit the ball. Compared to what I do which is just move the racquet head from low to high but I turn the head of the racquet towards the ball almost immediately versus delaying it until the last possible moment like the pros. So this action of driving the butt of the racquet towards the ball and waiting until the very last possible moment to swing the racquet head into the ball must allow them to generate great spin and speed on the ball. Agree or disagree?

[Bungalow Bill]

So according to the experts here, the wiper produces more spin than the swoosh stroke. That makes sense since the pros seem to use the wiper 95% of the time. I must not be hitting the wiper correctly because I produce more spin with the swoosh. So I looked at the high speed video clips on this site and noticed something that is in stark contrast to my swing. The pros lead the swing with the butt of their racquet and at the very last second (nanosecond) they whip the head of the racquet around and up and into the ball. Look at these two links (I don’t have quicktime pro to paste them):

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?RogerFedererForehand.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?JustineHeninHardenneForehand.mov

At its closest point, the butt of the racquet and the ball are within a foot of each other. If the ball is traveling at 60mph (typical pro groundstroke speed?), then the pros are waiting until the very last possible moment to whip the head of the racquet around to hit the ball. Compared to what I do which is just move the racquet head from low to high but I turn the head of the racquet towards the ball almost immediately versus delaying it until the last possible moment like the pros. So this action of driving the butt of the racquet towards the ball and waiting until the very last possible moment to swing the racquet head into the ball must allow them to generate great spin and speed on the ball. Agree or disagree?

I agree that the racquet head no matter how you do it will put topspin on the ball if the strings hit the ball in that 4 millisecond time upward. The ball doesnt care how you swing. It doesn't matter to the ball it is a Nike Swoosh swing you used or you simply turned over the hand in a pronating way.

I believe in the Rodger Federer forehand he turns the handle in his hand a little just before contact to get the racquet head to move upward in the windshield wiper fashion. You can see this a little before contact when his forearm muscles tighten a bit more. It also looks as the ball leaves the strings he relaxes the hand and the forearm. So it happens very quickly.

The other thing to take note is how far Rodger extends through the ball and how far out in front he hits it. Look at the elbow's position in relation to the body plane.

Rodger is demonstrating a combination of the Nike swoosh and the windshield wiper up the ball. The swing however, is going through the ball.

So we see a loose arm, acceleration going up to the ball (Nike Swoosh), last second turning of the hand (windshield wiper), penetration through the ball, and then the natural relaxed followthrough.

You need to practice this on slow to medium balls and don't torque your arm too much because that will lead to injuries.

[tennismaverick]

I believe in the Rodger Federer forehand he turns the handle in his hand a little just before contact to get the racquet head to move upward in the windshield wiper fashion. You can see this a little before contact when his forearm muscles tighten a bit more.

Good points but I am not sure I follow your above statement. Are you saying he is changing his grip slightly? Also, I said earlier that I thought the pros used the wiper 95% of the time. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe its a combination of the swoosh and wiper or maybe they use the swoosh a lot more than I think but its hard to tell exactly what they are doing when looking at the videos. If you wouldn't have pointed out the combination, I wouldn't have seen it. I just reviewed a bunch more videos and I am having a very hard time telling what they are doing. Unless I asked them I don't think I would know for sure. Do you think that most pros use a combination of the two strokes a la federer in the above clip?

[Bungalow Bill]

Good points but I am not sure I follow your above statement. Are you saying he is changing his grip slightly?

Nope, he is not changing his grip. He is rotating the racquet by turning his hand. But I think a lot of that has to do with his swing motion and his loose arm action. One thing for certain he does extend both his arm and racquet thorugh the ball as he is wiping up the back of it.

Also, I said earlier that I thought the pros used the wiper 95% of the time. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe its a combination of the swoosh and wiper or maybe they use the swoosh a lot more than I think but its hard to tell exactly what they are doing when looking at the videos.

Actually it can be pretty easy to see if a player is going through the ball. They can go through the ball, out to the target, and then around and over for the finish. But I do think the majority of shots hit by pros will be a combination which I think is what you are missing that can really help you see this for your own game.

If you wouldn't have pointed out the combination, I wouldn't have seen it. I just reviewed a bunch more videos and I am having a very hard time telling what they are doing. Unless I asked them I don't think I would know for sure. Do you think that most pros use a combination of the two strokes a la federer in the above clip?

Exactly. Nearly every shot has a combination of extention and upward racquet movement (swiping or windshield wiping). But a lot of the forehands are simply the swoosh with natural movement coing up and around.

What I am trying to say here is there is a balance which is also what you should stirve for. For the most part, I do not work on turning the hand counterclockwise for windshield wiping - I think this is putting the cart before the horse and teaches a player to rely on this movement for their topspin.

I think teaching players to lengthen the stroke by executing an appropriate swing path is far more important for a players timing and development. Later they can add a little touch or more spin by introducing another movement of the arm such as the windshield wiper.

[mntlblok]

Actually Kevin you really need to get a specific file for us to look at so we can comment. There has to be one that you like we can talk about?

Also, the main reason as John said for the wiper motion is to INCREASE the spin rotation of the ball. The forward movement propels the ball forward. The combination of the two determines the heaviness of the ball.

Many players can really spin the ball through their motion. But let's get a clip up to refer to what we are talking about - I feel like I am driving blind.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/famouscoach/robert_lansdorp/lansdorp_reverse_forehand_images/lansdorp_reverse_forehand.html

I've been assuming that the "swoosh" stroke is as the one in the above link by Sampras that Landsdorp calls the "Sampras Reverse Forehand". My assumption was that this exaggerated low-to-high swing path would generate more topspin than a stroke that was more "through" the ball, such as the "wiper". I certainly didn't mean to imply that the "wiper" couldn't generate plenty of topspin - only that it seems (to me) that the "swoosh" would generate more - at the expense of depth, pace, and flatter trajectory. I would think the advantage of the "swoosh" or Sampras Reverse Forehand would be that it would more safely clear the net and dip at a faster rate, making it more likely to land in on a sharply angled shot or be lower (and therefore more difficult to volley offensively) when it reached a net volleyer's racket.

John and the physicists have looked at spin rates with the high speed cameras, and if they say the wiper has a greater rate of spin, then I believe it implicitly. It may well be that a hard-hit, "drive" forehand (that has enough net clearance for a good margin for error), *must* have more spin in order for it to have a chance to keep from landing past the other base line (with a good margin for error).

I can also see the possibility that the primary value of the "swoosh" swing may be to control trajectory - like for topspin lobs and "dippers", for example. Come to think of it, I also try to use the "swoosh" when hitting certain half volleys - especially from the baseline.

Again, this hits home with my questions about how much of trajectory is controlled by swing path and how much by racket face angle on topspin strokes.

My own goofy forehand has evolved from the fact that, if I don't do something to my swing to keep it from happening, my "drive" forehand hits *high* on the fence.

Kevin

[tennismaverick]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._forehand.html

I've been assuming that the "swoosh" stroke is as the one in the above link by Sampras that Landsdorp calls the "Sampras Reverse Forehand". My assumption was that this exaggerated low-to-high swing path would generate more topspin than a stroke that was more "through" the ball, such as the "wiper". Again, this hits home with my questions about how much of trajectory is controlled by swing path and how much by racket face angle on topspin strokes.
Kevin

The reverse forehand looks the same to me as the swoosh. It would be interesting to see a study on the number of ball revolutions using the swoosh, wiper and combo of the two. Interesting question regarding trajectory. I haven't finished the Physics of Tennis book but does it say anything about that in there? I will have to experiment myself with these strokes.

[mntlblok]

Trajectory

[QUOTE=tennismaverick] Interesting question regarding trajectory. I haven't finished the Physics of Tennis book but does it say anything about that in there? QUOTE]

Not to my satisfaction. As a matter of fact, it further muddied it for me, as they pointed out other factors that play into the trajectory - the angle that the ball approaches the racket face and the type of spin that is on the ball coming from the other side of the net.

Kevin

[Bungalow Bill]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._forehand.html

I've been assuming that the "swoosh" stroke is as the one in the above link by Sampras that Landsdorp calls the "Sampras Reverse Forehand". My assumption was that this exaggerated low-to-high swing path would generate more topspin than a stroke that was more "through" the ball, such as the "wiper". I certainly didn't mean to imply that the "wiper" couldn't generate plenty of topspin - only that it seems (to me) that the "swoosh" would generate more - at the expense of depth, pace, and flatter trajectory. I would think the advantage of the "swoosh" or Sampras Reverse Forehand would be that it would more safely clear the net and dip at a faster rate, making it more likely to land in on a sharply angled shot or be lower (and therefore more difficult to volley offensively) when it reached a net volleyer's racket.

John and the physicists have looked at spin rates with the high speed cameras, and if they say the wiper has a greater rate of spin, then I believe it implicitly. It may well be that a hard-hit, "drive" forehand (that has enough net clearance for a good margin for error), *must* have more spin in order for it to have a chance to keep from landing past the other base line (with a good margin for error).

I can also see the possibility that the primary value of the "swoosh" swing may be to control trajectory - like for topspin lobs and "dippers", for example. Come to think of it, I also try to use the "swoosh" when hitting certain half volleys - especially from the baseline.

Again, this hits home with my questions about how much of trajectory is controlled by swing path and how much by racket face angle on topspin strokes.

My own goofy forehand has evolved from the fact that, if I don't do something to my swing to keep it from happening, my "drive" forehand hits *high* on the fence.

Kevin

I think we are getting a little off track introducing the reverse forehand. I will look for some clips to go over the differences (swoosh and windshield wiper) and try to either post the link or post the video itself.

[mntlblok]

Wipe and swoosh

I think we are getting a little off track introducing the reverse forehand. I will look for some clips to go over the differences (swoosh and windshield wiper) and try to either post the link or post the video itself.

Hmmm. . . I anxiously await the difference between the swoosh and the reverse.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_volleys_oh/bb_fh_volley/bb_fh_volley.html?BBFHHalfVcourfront.mov

I was just looking at the above link at Becker's half volleys. It appears to me that he uses one of each type of stroke on the two forehand half volleys, and then uses a slice for the backhand half volley.

Kevin

[tennismaverick]

If you look at Tommy Haas's videos of a running forehand, it looks like he is using the swoosh stroke almost exclusively. Unless this is the reverse forehand which I can't tell the difference between the two other than the reverse looks like a more extreme version of the swoosh.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/tommy_haas/th_forehand/th_fh_running/th_fh_running.html?THFHRunningCourtLevelSide1.mov

But in the center and wide forehands it looks like he is using the combo method. Sampras does the same and some other players as well. Why do they use the swoosh on the running forehands but not the more stationary forehands where they use the wiper or combo or in Samrpas's case a more traditional forehand? Is it because the ball is lower and they have to scoop it up? Federer seems to use the combo method on almost all of his forehands regardless if he is running, hitting a low ball or a high ball.

[ruymendes1]

Auto motion

Guys, they don´t know what they are doing, that is, after lots of practice these different shots just come automatic.
If you play a lot, and your phisical condition allow a great effort, you will hit all these shots, in all these different manners, without even think as how did you have done that.

[Bungalow Bill]

Hmmm. . . I anxiously await the difference between the swoosh and the reverse.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/borisbecker/borisbecker_volleys_oh/bb_fh_volley/bb_fh_volley.html?BBFHHalfVcourfront.mov

I was just looking at the above link at Becker's half volleys. It appears to me that he uses one of each type of stroke on the two forehand half volleys, and then uses a slice for the backhand half volley.

Kevin

Okay, here is a really good video of what we are talking about. Not as much wiper motion and definietly the modern Nike Swoosh we are looking for.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/jcferrero/jcferrero_forehand/jcf_fh_center/jcf_fh_center.html?JCFerreroFHCenterRear1.mov

Ferrero goes well through the ball for a penetrating shot and probably to take control of the point it seems. Obviously we dont know that but from his body language he is certainly hitting the ball hard.

If you nudge through the shot slowly you will see:

1. A loose wrist

2. A laid back wrist due to the players arm motion forward and NOT the players will (purposely laying it back).

3. Flings the racquet head through the ball on an upward angled SWING PATH.

4. Racquet head goes way out before it comes back towards the body (extension through the ball).

5. EXTREME BALANCE throughout the shot.

Here is James Blake still with the swoosh but also has somewhat of a windshiled wiper. Still goes well through the ball with the upward swing path.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/james_blake/jb_forehand/jb_fh_center/jb_fh_center.html?JBFHCenterOpenStanceSide1.mov

Rodger Federer with the more SwOOsh pattern

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_center/rogerfederer_fh_center.html?FedererFHCenterSide1.mov

Rodger Federer with more of a windshield wiper motion

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_center/rogerfederer_fh_center.html?FedererFHCenterSide2.mov

So let's discuss from here. The key thing to note is how the racquet moves just after the shot. Does it go out toward the net, or up and over like the last link.

Most of the action happening after the shot is coming from the relaxation that is happening in the wrist and hand. Lots of relaxation in the wrist BEFORE the shot as well.

Still for us it is good to have a little firmness as that helps stablize our racquet head for consistent timing.