Topspin

[tennismaverick]

I wanted to get your opinion on how to hit heavy topspin. I have already heard from several other players on this board and would like to hear from some different players. I apologize if I am offending anyone by asking for a second opinion but like so many things in tennis, there is a great difference in opinion and it helps me to hear the differences.
I am confused about how to hit heavy topspin. When I watch the pros hit topspin, they seem to do it in two different ways. The first way is brushing up the back side of the ball in a swing path that resembles a crescent moon where the racquet goes from the 6 o'clock to the 12 o'clock position. The racquet frequently ends up on the same side of their body as their hitting arm when they do this. The second way of hitting topspin is by rotating the racquet from one side to the other in a swing path that resembles a windshield wiper. Which method is better?

Here is a link and another person's explanation of the crescent moon stroke (I made up that name). http://tennis.about.com/cs/yourgame/a/fhessftvideo.htm
Even if you end up on the opposite side of your body using this swing path (here is a video of that
http://tennis.about.com/cs/yourgame/...neasttsvid.htm )
it is still almost from the 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock position and is dramatically different than the windshield wiper method (e.g. http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...les_page4.html) that I see Agassi, Federer and Roddick using a lot. So which is better?

BTW I don't think heavy topspin is a panacea for all tennis troubles but I do think it is a good weapon in an arsenal of many weapons.

[Bungalow Bill]

I wanted to get your opinion on how to hit heavy topspin. I have already heard from several other players on this board and would like to hear from some different players. I apologize if I am offending anyone by asking for a second opinion but like so many things in tennis, there is a great difference in opinion and it helps me to hear the differences.
I am confused about how to hit heavy topspin. When I watch the pros hit topspin, they seem to do it in two different ways. The first way is brushing up the back side of the ball in a swing path that resembles a crescent moon where the racquet goes from the 6 o'clock to the 12 o'clock position. The racquet frequently ends up on the same side of their body as their hitting arm when they do this. The second way of hitting topspin is by rotating the racquet from one side to the other in a swing path that resembles a windshield wiper. Which method is better?

Here is a link and another person's explanation of the crescent moon stroke (I made up that name). http://tennis.about.com/cs/yourgame/a/fhessftvideo.htm
Even if you end up on the opposite side of your body using this swing path (here is a video of that
http://tennis.about.com/cs/yourgame/...neasttsvid.htm )
it is still almost from the 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock position and is dramatically different than the windshield wiper method (e.g. http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...les_page4.html) that I see Agassi, Federer and Roddick using a lot. So which is better?

BTW I don't think heavy topspin is a panacea for all tennis troubles but I do think it is a good weapon in an arsenal of many weapons.

I think they are both good and should be used for what they are good for. In the back court, I recommend using the swing path (the moon as you desribed it) mainly to generate topspin. If you are moving into the court for a short ball or a speciality shot, then you can use the windshiled wiping method to impart topspin and hit with power down into the court.

I am not a proponent to impart topspin with the windshield wiping method ALL the time. For one reason, injuries. That type of swing places a large amount of pressure on the elbow area and I know several very good players that have had to have elbow surgery because that is the only motion they used ALL the time.

Some players may not ever hit a heavy ball. You can try to increase swing speed and develop your path and timing but you may only get to a certain point on what you can do. But there is not question that "heaviness" comes from a combination of spin and speed. Hope that helps.

[tennismaverick]

Thanks. What is the ideal contact point for each method? I can hit the windshield wiper stroke anywhere above my knee but I can only hit the crescent moon (or as a pro recently told me many people refer to it as the “sweep”) stroke below my waist. If I try to hit the crescent moon swing above my waist it is very awkward and I don’t generate much power or spin. Does that sound right? It seems like belly button level is the ideal level to hit the windshield wiper method using a low eastern grip. Do you agree?
Also, hitting the ball a foot in front of my hips seems to be the best spot. Do you agree?

[Bungalow Bill]

Thanks. What is the ideal contact point for each method? I can hit the windshield wiper stroke anywhere above my knee but I can only hit the crescent moon (or as a pro recently told me many people refer to it as the “sweep”) stroke below my waist. If I try to hit the crescent moon swing above my waist it is very awkward and I don’t generate much power or spin. Does that sound right?

Yeah it does make sense but you should be able to hit up through the ball at rib height depending on your grip with ease. What is the grip you are using?

It seems like belly button level is the ideal level to hit the windshield wiper method using a low eastern grip. Do you agree?

Ahh, eastern grip, okay. The Easterns strike zone will be lower so that makes sens on where you like to hit it.

It does make sense that the higher the ball you will want to hit more of a windshield wiper motion. At the same time you do need to practice your Nike Swoosh swing as well on higher in the strike zone balls. The Eastern grip is a versatile grip.

Also, hitting the ball a foot in front of my hips seems to be the best spot. Do you agree?

The key to hitting in front is to make sure the elbow is moving in front of the body plane. If you are hitting that far in front chances are you are already doing so. That is good, for the most part you always want to hit in front. Remember, playing with the strike zone is a prefence area. There is room to move around for all players and the strike zone is just that - a zone. Good job!

[tennismaverick]

Well, I went out and played this afternoon and followed your advice. I think it was excellent advice. I used the wiper stroke inside the baseline and the Nike swoosh stroke (I will rename what I called the crescent stroke the swoosh from here on out) near or beyond the baseline. I can generate more topspin using the swoosh stroke. In fact, I tried hitting the wiper beyond the baseline as well but when I switched to the swoosh my opponent miss hit many of my balls. When my ball hit the court it bounced up so forcefully into his racquet that it ended up behind him. This really surprised me since I thought I was hitting more spin with the wiper. But my opponent confirmed that my swoosh stroke was generating a lot more spin. The odd thing about the swoosh stroke is it feels like I am going to hit it over the back fence but somehow the ball lands in. I really have to aim at least 6 feet over the net because if I don't it will hit the net. Frequently it just clears the net, since I am not used to judging how to hit this yet, but it still has enough pace and spin to force my opponent to have to hit it near the baseline. It is a weird feeling stroke though. Thanks for the advice and keep it coming.

[mntlblok]

Experiment

From an idea that I got from the tennis physics book, I tried contacting topspin forehands a bit "above" the center of the strings. The book says the ball slides a bit on the strings before taking a "bite" (I think. I've loaned the book to one of our pro's).

The idea is that hopefully the ball will bite at about the time that it makes it to the "middle" of the strings (after it finishes sliding).

What I *think* I've noticed is that I get the same sort of feel that I get when I try to use more of a shoulder swing and a less "whippy" swing. It seems like a totally different "quality" of topspin. It feels more "solid", as opposed to the almost "mishit" feel with the whippier version.

[tennismaverick]

I do the same thing. It feels like if I were to aim at the middle of the strings I would end up hitting at the bottom of the strings so I aim for the top as well. But the swoosh topspin swing is such a strange feeling. It feels like it would be much more difficult to hit this way but I can hit better this way than with the wiper. I must not be doing the wiper stroke correctly because when I watch the pros it seems like they use the wiper most of the time therefore I would assume that they can hit more topspin with the wiper. It appears to me and I read this somewhere, the pros only use the swoosh swing when they get behind a low ball and are in the backcourt. For example, their opponent hits behind them as they are moving in the opposite direction and they must turn and hit it. This causes them to be late and they can’t make a full unit turn. So they use the swoosh to scoop the ball up and over the net but with good spin and pace. I don’t know if this is true or not but it looks like it. Also, if you are playing for $500,000, you are probably going to use the stroke that works the best for you and risk any injury. Since most of them seem to use the wiper, I am guessing they can hit better with that stroke and will take their risk with an elbow injury. Probably not a good idea for a recreational player but if I was playing for big bucks I would do the same.

[mntlblok]

Swoosh stroke

I've been watching a bunch of the Advanced Tennis Research Project DVD's, and in particular the strokes that the professionals use for returns of first serves. This stroke would seem to have in common the feature of not having enough time to do the wiper stroke (as with the situations you describe).

The first serve return stroke also seems to be much more "vertical" (like the swish) than "hitting through the ball" (like with the wiper). Apparently, with a minimal backswing, just a short little upward (and slightly forward) move of the racket face is enough to get enough pace on the ball to keep them from getting into trouble on the return - with most of the energy supplied by the incoming first serve. It seems much more common for them to hit this shot rather than resorting to a slice - especially on the forehand.

My guess is that their reason for using the wiper as their primary topspin stroke is that it would produce a flatter, faster, deeper and, therefore, more penetrating ball. I'm sure there are all kinds of gradations in between - with the professionals probably having spent lots of time balancing the risk/reward tallies in practice. Wouldn't surprise me if John already has an index he's working on that measures such things.

Another valuable aspect of the swoosh stroke would seem to me to be the steeper parabolic flight attained by such a stroke. This would be valuable in dipping the ball at a volleyer's feet, landing a short angled ball in the court, or landing a topspin lob in the court. I'd love to see an article that shows to what degree swing path versus racket face angle is involved in ball flight trajectories such as these - especially for the topspin lob. The tennis physics book only slightly touched on it, primarily from the aspect of what the angle of incidence and spin of the incoming ball had on the way the ball tended to come off the next racket. Guess I'll have to do the study myself. :-)

For me, I'm finding that the "kinetic image" that (so far) best allows me to hit more "through" the ball is to try to make the butt of the racket go towards the target as long as possible. I find this especially useful as my elbow *really* has this urge to fly away from my side to help square up the racket face on the forehand. If I try to use the mental picture of my *palm* going forward longer or further, it seems that it is "too late* in my swing to control it.

I'm finding that other "kinetic images" that seem to work best for me are those that happen *before* the actual hit happens. Or, at least, that lead to a "reaction" to my swing thought. For example, my serve has recently improved because I think of my arm or shoulder sending the racket face across the back of the ball, with my hand just lightly gripping the racket. This *allows* my wrist to snap - with a *much* better result than if I try to *make* it snap.

Uh oh. Rambling, again. . .

Kevin

[Bungalow Bill]

I've been watching a bunch of the Advanced Tennis Research Project DVD's, and in particular the strokes that the professionals use for returns of first serves. This stroke would seem to have in common the feature of not having enough time to do the wiper stroke (as with the situations you describe).

The first serve return stroke also seems to be much more "vertical" (like the swish) than "hitting through the ball" (like with the wiper). Apparently, with a minimal backswing, just a short little upward (and slightly forward) move of the racket face is enough to get enough pace on the ball to keep them from getting into trouble on the return - with most of the energy supplied by the incoming first serve. It seems much more common for them to hit this shot rather than resorting to a slice - especially on the forehand.

My guess is that their reason for using the wiper as their primary topspin stroke is that it would produce a flatter, faster, deeper and, therefore, more penetrating ball. I'm sure there are all kinds of gradations in between - with the professionals probably having spent lots of time balancing the risk/reward tallies in practice. Wouldn't surprise me if John already has an index he's working on that measures such things.

Another valuable aspect of the swoosh stroke would seem to me to be the steeper parabolic flight attained by such a stroke. This would be valuable in dipping the ball at a volleyer's feet, landing a short angled ball in the court, or landing a topspin lob in the court. I'd love to see an article that shows to what degree swing path versus racket face angle is involved in ball flight trajectories such as these - especially for the topspin lob. The tennis physics book only slightly touched on it, primarily from the aspect of what the angle of incidence and spin of the incoming ball had on the way the ball tended to come off the next racket. Guess I'll have to do the study myself. :-)

For me, I'm finding that the "kinetic image" that (so far) best allows me to hit more "through" the ball is to try to make the butt of the racket go towards the target as long as possible. I find this especially useful as my elbow *really* has this urge to fly away from my side to help square up the racket face on the forehand. If I try to use the mental picture of my *palm* going forward longer or further, it seems that it is "too late* in my swing to control it.

I'm finding that other "kinetic images" that seem to work best for me are those that happen *before* the actual hit happens. Or, at least, that lead to a "reaction" to my swing thought. For example, my serve has recently improved because I think of my arm or shoulder sending the racket face across the back of the ball, with my hand just lightly gripping the racket. This *allows* my wrist to snap - with a *much* better result than if I try to *make* it snap.

Uh oh. Rambling, again. . .

Kevin

Kevin I think you are doing an excellent job in reviewing videos for yourself. It is the best way to learn and see what is really happening.

What I see is a short backswing and good extension through the ball. It is true that on shorter swings you can pronate the forearm more to get that windshield wiper motion. I would only caution you as to this windshield wiper method shortening your stroke too much. Like you are hitting the ball with only half an arm. A good shot still needs to have you go through the ball.

Also, timing the windshield wiper takes practice. You have too elements introduced the slight upward motion of your swing and the "rolling" forearm to bring the racquet face up the back while the entire racquet is going up and out. Sometimes what this can do is introduce offcenter hits or frame balls.

What I am saying is you need to practice this way of moving the racquet and hone your timing.

By the way, are you a member here? If so, let's load a video clip in and talk about it. Just name the clip and hopefully John can help us critique it.

[mntlblok]

By the way, are you a member here? If so, let's load a video clip in and talk about it. Just name the clip and hopefully John can help us critique it.

Be careful what you ask for. I've already overloaded John with more DVD's than he has time for. This site really has me stoked. Went out and bought a miniDV camcorder, firewire, software, and a DVD burner.

I'm sure he would be happy to have you take them off his hands. I've even sent video of slice forehands, overheads, and backhand drop shots.

I haven't had the chance to experiment with what I think I've seen from the first serve returns on the videos. It's not that easy to find somebody that wants to practice first serves when you're available to practice returning them. And, I'm not sure they would want me getting the practice, anyway.

Resisted the urge to take the video camera out today when I practiced slice approach shots off both sides. Creeping up on the conclusion that getting my back to the net on both sides is the key to those approaches. Pretty weird looking on the forehand, but it works. :-)

Kevin

[Bungalow Bill]

Be careful what you ask for. I've already overloaded John with more DVD's than he has time for. This site really has me stoked. Went out and bought a miniDV camcorder, firewire, software, and a DVD burner.

I'm sure he would be happy to have you take them off his hands. I've even sent video of slice forehands, overheads, and backhand drop shots.

I haven't had the chance to experiment with what I think I've seen from the first serve returns on the videos. It's not that easy to find somebody that wants to practice first serves when you're available to practice returning them. And, I'm not sure they would want me getting the practice, anyway.

Resisted the urge to take the video camera out today when I practiced slice approach shots off both sides. Creeping up on the conclusion that getting my back to the net on both sides is the key to those approaches. Pretty weird looking on the forehand, but it works. :-)

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your reply. We can definetly review your video, I was referring to a pro's video that is in the Strokes Archive that you have reviewed that helps me see beter what you are talking about.

It helps if we are seeing the same thing and also confirm we are talking about the same thing. Let me know what video you are analyzing and maybe John can help me imbedded it in one of our threads here.

[mntlblok]

First serve returns

I don't remember exactly where I saw them on the web site, but Agassi and Federer are the only ones that come to mind.

The others that I've been watching are from the DVD's that I bought from the Advanced Tennis Research Project. Safin's abbreviated stroke sticks in my mind. Watching it in slow motion leads me to think that it couldn't possibly make the ball go anywhere, if I didn't know better.

I don't know whether I have the technology to copy from the DVD's or know how to do it. I also doubt that it would be legal for me to do it.

BTW, they tell me that one of the reasons that Agassi will be at Delray Beach is that he's not planning to play the Australian. Sure would have thought he would have played in the slam that he's had the most success in.

Kevin

[johnyandell]

Yeah start with the forehand. Kevin, I have your forehand DVD but the file type is odd. Windows Media player can see it, but it's not a standard AVI file--so I haven't been able to chop it up.

BB, he sent me around 50 forehands--which was actually good since he seems to have at least 6-10 different versions on his basic drive...

Can you see if you can output that as straight AVI file? Should not be a problem.

[mntlblok]

The others that I've been watching are from the DVD's that I bought from the Advanced Tennis Research Project. Safin's abbreviated stroke sticks in my mind. Watching it in slow motion leads me to think that it couldn't possibly make the ball go anywhere, if I didn't know better.

Kevin

Upon further review. . . I went to the service return DVD's and looked at all the forehand first serve returns. I see that only Sampras, Kuerten, and Haas did the "reverse" forehand (I think that's what Landsdorp called it) very often, though Philippoussis did it occasionally. Rusedski was the most fun to watch with his wide variety of forms.

It looks like I was paying too much attention to the racket movement in the backswing and not enough attention to how much shoulder turn all those guys still managed to get in against first serves. It looks like most of them are most of the time able to "wipe", even with the abbreviated backswings.

Kevin
wrong, again

[mntlblok]

VCD vs. DVD

Yeah start with the forehand. Kevin, I have your forehand DVD but the file type is odd. Windows Media player can see it, but it's not a standard AVI file--so I haven't been able to chop it up.

BB, he sent me around 50 forehands--which was actually good since he seems to have at least 6-10 different versions on his basic drive...

Can you see if you can output that as straight AVI file? Should not be a problem.

That was my first try and it came out as a "VCD" (video CD). The next DVD that I sent includes what was on the VCD, as I think I learned that the DVD would be in a higher quality.

Those forehands were *after* I had tried to make improvements after watching several days worth and of video and studying your web site. Prior to that I *never* attempted to turn my shoulders and hit only with an open stance. I thought that I had picked up that my hand was too high and tried to minimize that. Then, I tried to go to the double bend, realizing that my elbow was locked through the swing. Then, I tried to just swing from the shoulder, trying to get rid of much of the whippiness.

Have your way with it. I know it sucks (and has for a couple of decades), but my mind is open. I intend to prove that I can make whatever changes are suggested - and pretty quickly.

Kevin