Did my homework
I did my homework and you are, of course, exactly right. I've also had the chance since then to video tape my strokes and to study more of the high speed videos that you sent. I've even attempted to make some changes in my forehand stroke.
I have just re-read all of your articles on "Buliding the Modern Forehand" (except the two on Federer). How frustrating to see how much I had forgotten in just a couple of weeks. :-( However, I think I am also better able to understand them now that I've spent so much time on the site and with the high speed videos).
I also see that you covered, in the articles, the fact that some professionals do slightly "flex" their wrists a bit on the forward swing (or it at least un-extend a bit), and that the ball sometimes forces the relaxed wrist back a bit at impact.
Looking at the photo with the caption: [The hitting arm position stays the same, but as the racket rotates the grip becomes more extreme and the angle of the racket face naturally closes.] at
it shows how the racquet face closes as the forehand grips become more extreme. With these pictures in mind, and seeing that all of the professionals have the racquet face closed just before starting the forward swing, I got to wondering how the guys with the more extreme grips get their racquet faces back to essentially vertical at impact. You may have explained this in the articles, but if you did, I didn't catch it.
It looks to me like this is why the more extreme the grip, the more extreme the shoulder turn (forward) before impact. It strikes me that the "closed-ness" of the racquet face "squares up" or becomes vertical in different ways in different "hand/hitting shoulder" relationships. What I mean is, (I think) the hitting hand is further out in front of the hitting shoulder for the extreme grips when the face becomes vertical. If they hadn't turned their shoulders more by the time they had made contact, their racquet faces would be pointing well out to the right of their target. I may be all wet here. Maybe this also puts their forearms more straight behind the hand in the hitting position than the less extreme crowd, and maybe it *needs* to be since their palms are not as "behind" (instead, more "under") the grip as it is with the less extreme crowd. The following page shows the contact points across the grip styles, and it does look to me like Pete is making contact "less out front".
I think the more extreme grips could also get the face both vertical and facing the target by swinging in a more steeply low-to-high angle. This would still allow the swing to be "from the shoulder" rather than resorting to any wacky wrist stuff. But, it looks (to me) like (and I believe John says) the typical (not low balls or sharply angled shots) stroke is not very steep for any of the professional forehands. That is, the hitting hand is only barely below ball height as it comes forward.
I'm not clear on the "internal rotation" (pronation via the radial-ulnar joints?) occurring before impact. It seems to me that, if that were to occur prior to impact, then the "closed" racquet face in the backswing would become *more* closed, rather than squaring up to vertical. I suppose, too, that it's possible that the stuff going on within other joints could counteract that "closing". Still, in the slow-mo's that I've watched, it doesn't look to me like it happens until after the ball has left the strings.
I think I am beginning to see why I've had such a terrible time controlling the trajectory of my topspin forehand for so long. It looks like all the professionals are swinging primarily in the horizontal plane with their swings, with only a slight low-to-high vertical component.
Prior to learning that I needed a "unit turn", it looks like I've been trying to swing in primarily a vertical plane. No matter *which* forehand grip I used, I was only going to have a near vertical racquet face for a *very* short period of time. I was trying to keep my racquet head going "down the line" *too* much.
Interestingly, in "The Physics and Technology of Tennis", they point out that a few degrees left or right error in racquet face angle only throws the shot off a relatively few inches left or right on the opposing baseline, while having the racquet face pointing too high or too low at impact (opened or closed to veritcal) by only a very few degrees makes the difference between hitting it into the court or into the fence or net.
It looks like I haven't had a prayer. I think that is also why I've been so hung up with the wrist stuff. Since looking at my recent videos, I've not only added in the "unit turn", but I've also worked on doing away with most of the wrist and forearm stuff and am trying to do as much as possible with just my shoulder joint. The "quality" of the topspin that I now generate feels totally different, and the trajectory is in a much more narrow range.
I also see now that my one-handed topspin backhand (which *hasn't* been a problem) has been executed primarily in that horizontal plane.
I've mailed a little video of my strokes to John. I look forward to his and other critiques and other suggestions. I'm hoping that John will like my lack of a "loop" in my forehand backswing. :-)
While I'm thinking about it, I wonder if many others have tried this. Once I realized that I had gone *past* (more extreme) the Eastern grip on my backhand to having my main index finger knuckle over the eighth bevel rather than on the top bevel, I realized that I could use that same grip for my topspin forehand if I switched to a semi-Western (from Eastern) - but use the *same* side of the strings for both shots. It wasn't much of problem to make the forehand change since my forehand sucked, anyway. :-)
Kevin
Savannah
Originally posted by johnyandell
I did my homework and you are, of course, exactly right. I've also had the chance since then to video tape my strokes and to study more of the high speed videos that you sent. I've even attempted to make some changes in my forehand stroke.
I have just re-read all of your articles on "Buliding the Modern Forehand" (except the two on Federer). How frustrating to see how much I had forgotten in just a couple of weeks. :-( However, I think I am also better able to understand them now that I've spent so much time on the site and with the high speed videos).
I also see that you covered, in the articles, the fact that some professionals do slightly "flex" their wrists a bit on the forward swing (or it at least un-extend a bit), and that the ball sometimes forces the relaxed wrist back a bit at impact.
Looking at the photo with the caption: [The hitting arm position stays the same, but as the racket rotates the grip becomes more extreme and the angle of the racket face naturally closes.] at
it shows how the racquet face closes as the forehand grips become more extreme. With these pictures in mind, and seeing that all of the professionals have the racquet face closed just before starting the forward swing, I got to wondering how the guys with the more extreme grips get their racquet faces back to essentially vertical at impact. You may have explained this in the articles, but if you did, I didn't catch it.
It looks to me like this is why the more extreme the grip, the more extreme the shoulder turn (forward) before impact. It strikes me that the "closed-ness" of the racquet face "squares up" or becomes vertical in different ways in different "hand/hitting shoulder" relationships. What I mean is, (I think) the hitting hand is further out in front of the hitting shoulder for the extreme grips when the face becomes vertical. If they hadn't turned their shoulders more by the time they had made contact, their racquet faces would be pointing well out to the right of their target. I may be all wet here. Maybe this also puts their forearms more straight behind the hand in the hitting position than the less extreme crowd, and maybe it *needs* to be since their palms are not as "behind" (instead, more "under") the grip as it is with the less extreme crowd. The following page shows the contact points across the grip styles, and it does look to me like Pete is making contact "less out front".
I think the more extreme grips could also get the face both vertical and facing the target by swinging in a more steeply low-to-high angle. This would still allow the swing to be "from the shoulder" rather than resorting to any wacky wrist stuff. But, it looks (to me) like (and I believe John says) the typical (not low balls or sharply angled shots) stroke is not very steep for any of the professional forehands. That is, the hitting hand is only barely below ball height as it comes forward.
I'm not clear on the "internal rotation" (pronation via the radial-ulnar joints?) occurring before impact. It seems to me that, if that were to occur prior to impact, then the "closed" racquet face in the backswing would become *more* closed, rather than squaring up to vertical. I suppose, too, that it's possible that the stuff going on within other joints could counteract that "closing". Still, in the slow-mo's that I've watched, it doesn't look to me like it happens until after the ball has left the strings.
I think I am beginning to see why I've had such a terrible time controlling the trajectory of my topspin forehand for so long. It looks like all the professionals are swinging primarily in the horizontal plane with their swings, with only a slight low-to-high vertical component.
Prior to learning that I needed a "unit turn", it looks like I've been trying to swing in primarily a vertical plane. No matter *which* forehand grip I used, I was only going to have a near vertical racquet face for a *very* short period of time. I was trying to keep my racquet head going "down the line" *too* much.
Interestingly, in "The Physics and Technology of Tennis", they point out that a few degrees left or right error in racquet face angle only throws the shot off a relatively few inches left or right on the opposing baseline, while having the racquet face pointing too high or too low at impact (opened or closed to veritcal) by only a very few degrees makes the difference between hitting it into the court or into the fence or net.
It looks like I haven't had a prayer. I think that is also why I've been so hung up with the wrist stuff. Since looking at my recent videos, I've not only added in the "unit turn", but I've also worked on doing away with most of the wrist and forearm stuff and am trying to do as much as possible with just my shoulder joint. The "quality" of the topspin that I now generate feels totally different, and the trajectory is in a much more narrow range.
I also see now that my one-handed topspin backhand (which *hasn't* been a problem) has been executed primarily in that horizontal plane.
I've mailed a little video of my strokes to John. I look forward to his and other critiques and other suggestions. I'm hoping that John will like my lack of a "loop" in my forehand backswing. :-)
While I'm thinking about it, I wonder if many others have tried this. Once I realized that I had gone *past* (more extreme) the Eastern grip on my backhand to having my main index finger knuckle over the eighth bevel rather than on the top bevel, I realized that I could use that same grip for my topspin forehand if I switched to a semi-Western (from Eastern) - but use the *same* side of the strings for both shots. It wasn't much of problem to make the forehand change since my forehand sucked, anyway. :-)
Kevin
Savannah
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