Interactive Forum June 2016 Sam Groth Serve

[johnyandell]

Sam Groth Serve

It’s a world record: 163.4 mph, or so they say. That was a serve hit by Sam Groth. And here is his motion from multiple angles at 240 frames a second. It’s an interesting combination of technical elements—to say the least. The super low toss. Does he hit it right at the top? But huge knee bend and substantial body turn. Look at how far into the court he makes contact! But look at that tossing motion! Filming him in practice I saw him catch a dozen tosses.

And what about his arm rotation—or its lack… A model for other players? Your thoughts?

[johnyandell]

Quicktime version

Sam Groth Serve

[tennis_chiro]

What a beast! The WTA-ATP Live app lists him at 6' 4" and 218 lbs. There may be taller guys on tour, but I doubt anyone is carrying as much lean muscle mass. He is thick! And lean!

The motion actually has a lot of really classic key positions:

* - his right elbow moves up to form a straight line through the clavicles to the tip of his left shoulder just before he goes up out of the power drop

* - the toss is a little funky, but the left hand never goes behind the baseline or the front of his body

* - he definitely times leg drive well to get the maximum inertial pull of the arm into external rotation before he goes up and starts the internal shoulder rotation

* - he definitely does not hit the ball on the way up, but he catches it very close to the top giving the illusion that he didn't get all the way up, but he did given the fact that he is so far out into the court

* - and the element I am always harping on: he has great rhythm that synchronises the forward movement of his weight transfer with the toss of the ball, something I consider essential.

Hard to believe, but I think there may be room for a little more internal shoulder rotation through impact. I don't think he gets as much as Isner, but he appears to be much stronger. i can't imagine how fast the serve would be if he had Isner's ISR through contact. Combine Groth's raw power with Isner's perfect snap and they'd have to be issuing protective gear to the center linesmen and lineswomen; maybe even eye protection.

He gets his left arm nicely extended, but kind of as an afterthought after he has released the ball; I'd like to see him stay with the ball a little longer on the toss and that might help him with the inconsistency on the toss that JY mentioned.

He must be awfully fit though. It would take tremendous energy to go through that leg drive and body twist for an entire 5-set match.

don

[klacr]

Just awesome!
Even in slo-mo, you can see and feel the power. Interesting that his tossing arm is bent for majority of the sequence. His ending location is, dare I say...
Krajicek-esque. And thats a great thing.

I love that he's moving out of the frame...to get to the net!
I remember watching him practice in Miami earlier this year with kyrgios. When he got that first serve in, it was improbable anyone could return it. But he didn't make that many first serves and in fact during his career, his first serve percentage has been a bit inadequate.
What technical characteristics in his motion do we see that could be leading to a lower %?

The arm rotation (lack thereof) really surprises. Something I would not expect from him nor something I could remotely pick up in real speed when he was 15 feet from me on court serving bombs.

Note: The 163.4mph serve Sam Groth hit was at a challenger in Busan, South Korea. Some say the gun is a bit juiced. But let's face it, if you can even get the gun to register 163.4 and it wasn't, you still hit it damn hard.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

I am not much of a fan of Sam's motion. I find everything a tad exaggerated. The knee-bend is over done and seems to start early. His backside is almost pointing toward the net at one phase. I imagine these exaggerations are bi-products of trying to get as much power as humanly possible. But I wonder if too much has been sacrificed in the process?

tennis_chiro makes an excellent observation on the toss, stating that if Groth hung onto to the ball a little longer it may help the accuracy of his ball toss. Klacr also points out Groth has a bent arm throughout the toss. Frew McMillan also had a bent arm, but got away with it. Frew does as tennis_chiro suggest and extends the tossing arm up much better than Groth. Frew's toss was millimetre perfect.

Go to 0:55 and 1:12 to see Frew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOJhthAV8-4

I wonder if Sam were to tone down the exaggerated aspects of his serve whether he might get more accuracy and consistency. He could afford to drop 30mph after all!

[gzhpcu]

You are not so bad yourself Kyle. You have some of his elements: low toss, leaning well into court. You have better arm rotation though....

[klacr]

You are not so bad yourself Kyle. You have some of his elements: low toss, leaning well into court. You have better arm rotation though....

Thanks. I try.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

His body motion reminds me of Taylor Dent... He did not have his arm straight at the start of the toss either...

[johnyandell]

One thing not is this video is the 20% of tosses he caught without hitting...

[maxply]

Wow, 20% of his tosses were unhittable? this is more than twice the rate of the average pro, correct? Tough for groth to get a rhythm catching one in five tosses. Odd for the opponent, too?

He is under a lot of pressure to get free points.

Anyway, what a powerful guy, using his body well. Big, complex bend with a pinpoint, whch could go awry...but he is syncing it well.

Wonder how he would do with a simpler toss? Would he benefit from a deeper start, a straighter the arm and an eye-level release point?
Wonder if he has seen this video and has called you, John?

Also, I wonder if he would want to explore a platform? More shoulder rotation? More variety? Well, whatever he is doing is working in terms of ball velocity.

However, I am sure he would want to finish his career better than the way he was forced to end his clay 2016 court campaign.

Well, onto the grass.

[gzhpcu]

Just watched Groth vs Marchenko in Stuttgart. What a bomb of a serve. And lots of bad tosses, with a "sorry mate"... like Rafter used to do, only he does it almost once per game...

[jeremy93]

very unique serve. First thing you notice is how he bends his knees well before the release of the toss. Probably something to do with such a low toss. Then you notice his tossing arm is very bent during the toss phase. I personally have a bent tossing arm like this and i have very accurate tosses so i don't think having the tossing arm totally straight is a must but if he has problems with an accurate toss then Im sure getting it closer to a straight could help. Also what is interesting is how he pivots both feet away from the net especially on the add side which i think is great. This will help those pinpoint servers to turn the torso away from the target and make contact with the ball with hips not overotated which is so common even on the tour especially in the WTA. What stood out to me the most is how far in the court he goes its ridiculous. He seems to load the big muscles as well as anyone. Like other people commented i noticed immediately he does not get full internal arm rotation after impact. Why do some players even on the pro tour like the great Andy Murray not have the full pronation???? Is it a conscious thought? or is it just something to do with the swing path? I believe if you have the right to left swing path the hitting arm will internally rotate naturally. Am i right??

[maxply]

Jeremy, interesting point. Kevin curren was a low tosser who pre-bent the knees, too.

Re: external to internal rotation.....yeah, some guys are leaving some spin and speed on the table. Their coaches could use some expert high speed video analysis. Paging mr. Yandell.

[johnyandell]

Somehow I doubt I will be working with Sam...Andy Murray still a maybe--let's see what Ivan says...

[klacr]

Somehow I doubt I will be working with Sam...Andy Murray still a maybe--let's see what Ivan says...

Too late for him (Ivan)...

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton